new BDP position paper

[beckrl]

At the same time, the Western world of Christianity seems to be slowed or drifting from Spirit-filled
influence. During the last decade, there has been external influence by misconceptions portrayed in the
media as well as internal influence from Christian leaders to distract, suppress, and, in some cases,
outright oppose any visible ministry or manifestation of the Holy Spirit. Some have advocated that the
spiritual gifts or corporate ministries of the Holy Spirit do not have place in public worship today.
This persuasion has resulted in not only the rapid decline of spiritual manifestations in the church, but it
has also subsequently discouraged believers from actively seeking the Baptism of the Holy Spirit.

I have never hear or seen this type of influence where that caused the rapid decline. But to the more pastors have preached " this or that be the reason for the decline not something outside of the church itself."

Some even have called the church the Sardis church because we were dead, not having the gifts of tongues shown in every service. Showing only the fruits of the Spirit.(Gal.5:22-26)

In the Church of God of Prophecy, our roots lie in the Holiness-Pentecostal historical tradition that was
anchored to biblical truth. If there is no evidence in our church services today to give witness to this
outward manifestation of the gifts of the Holy Spirit, we will simply appear as imposters.

It almost seems that the church desires that we show the gifts more;
I still think Paul said it best,
But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.

I can agree with the affirmation, but not will the other statements.

[free]

Have already voiced my concerns to the committee...I suggest the rest of you formerly submit your concerns as well...They want to hear from us even though this is report does not require acceptance by the assembly.

[Pastor Gary]

Have already voiced my concerns to the committee...I suggest the rest of you formerly submit your concerns as well...They want to hear from us even though this is report does not require acceptance by the assembly.

I am not at all sure they want any dialog on this issue, as they seem to state it as a foregone conclusion, but I sent a document explaining my areas of reservation.

[RamboPreacher]

That's not my issue, Paul. I have no problem with tongues, particularly during times of worship and corporate prayer. I do have an issue with the area of the document that suggests than an objective reading of the Book of Acts would find support for emphasis upon tongues in public worship as normative. It is simply not there.

Tongues are mentioned in Acts four times: one of the mentions is a public use of tongues, but not in the "church" during worship. The other mentions are not in public, corporate worship settings. In the rest of the New Testament there is little or no mention of tongues as normative in worship, except in 1st Corinthians, and that section is obviously written as a cautionary, corrective passage dealing with the abuse of tongues in public worship/

I long for the genuine, life-changing flow of the Spirit in our services, but disagree with the emphasis being placed on tongues as the end-all of pentecostalism. Read acts with a highlighter in hand and mark every instance of the evidence/manifestation of God's Spirit at work. Many verses, few instances of tongues. It is a lesser gift, receiving emphasis not given in scripture.

this.

[Pastor Gary]

That's not my issue, Paul. I have no problem with tongues, particularly during times of worship and corporate prayer. I do have an issue with the area of the document that suggests than an objective reading of the Book of Acts would find support for emphasis upon tongues in public worship as normative. It is simply not there.

Tongues are mentioned in Acts four times: one of the mentions is a public use of tongues, but not in the "church" during worship. The other mentions are not in public, corporate worship settings. In the rest of the New Testament there is little or no mention of tongues as normative in worship, except in 1st Corinthians, and that section is obviously written as a cautionary, corrective passage dealing with the abuse of tongues in public worship/

I long for the genuine, life-changing flow of the Spirit in our services, but disagree with the emphasis being placed on tongues as the end-all of pentecostalism. Read acts with a highlighter in hand and mark every instance of the evidence/manifestation of God's Spirit at work. Many verses, few instances of tongues. It is a lesser gift, receiving emphasis not given in scripture.

this.

Small correction: three times, really.

[Pastor Bill]

http://cogop.org/page.aspx?id=426568

I can see the need for something like this, and personally agree with it. well, mostly. the mostly part, or rather the small part I don't particularly see eye to eye with is the one paragraph that encourages speaking in tongues in a public arena. I guess, I see that as something against which Paul taught otherwise.

The scripture references they used, were all (except perhaps acts 2), not "public", but more in private situations - least that's how I see it (currently )

we need to understand that no where in the Bible does it say to not speak in tonges in public arenas. it does incourage us to pray for a interpreter, if no one does keep silent. but most people seem to forget that the end of the chapter in 1 corinthians ends with Werefore brethren covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues. thats very clear and missing in many COGOPs in this country. thats why its important to embrace this document as is.

I think it's important also to note that the wording in I Corinthians 14 where it says to "keep silent" is the same on the point of tongues in public as it is on telling women to "keep silent" just a few verses down. It's most commonly accepted in that instance that it is not referring to silence as we take it today as much as not being disruptive (as Paul described well from his church).

Disruptive "I can out shout everyone else because I'm more spiritual" attitudes are not appropriate, but we have to find a balance and not overreact from that extreme to the point that we discourage this manifestation as a part of our public services or stop teaching this as a part of a normal Christian experience.

[dawgs10]

good reading all the way thru.

[Full Quiver]

Guys, IF it's really the Spirit giving the utterance then the venue doesn't matter. Arguing about when and where tongues are appropriate just screams of flesh in the entire process.

[free]

My personal concerns expressed to the BDP committee were not about the when/where but others things that I saw that could be included in their declaration.

[paul]

That's not my issue, Paul. I have no problem with tongues, particularly during times of worship and corporate prayer. I do have an issue with the area of the document that suggests than an objective reading of the Book of Acts would find support for emphasis upon tongues in public worship as normative. It is simply not there.

Tongues are mentioned in Acts four times: one of the mentions is a public use of tongues, but not in the "church" during worship. The other mentions are not in public, corporate worship settings. In the rest of the New Testament there is little or no mention of tongues as normative in worship, except in 1st Corinthians, and that section is obviously written as a cautionary, corrective passage dealing with the abuse of tongues in public worship/

I long for the genuine, life-changing flow of the Spirit in our services, but disagree with the emphasis being placed on tongues as the end-all of pentecostalism. Read acts with a highlighter in hand and mark every instance of the evidence/manifestation of God's Spirit at work. Many verses, few instances of tongues. It is a lesser gift, receiving emphasis not given in scripture.

this.

Small correction: three times, really.

The argument of the gifts addressed by Paul in First Corinthians vs. 14:6-19 . The real issue is not tongues and prophecy per se, but the building up of the community of believers, and that can only be effected by understandable utterances and order.

The concern of Paul is edification vv.3-5

But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men edification, and exhortation, and consolation. He that speaketh in a tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church. Now I would have you all speak with tongues, but rather that ye should prophesy: and greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

Important to be observed is that even though Paul prefers prophecy to tongues in a gathered assembly, Verse 5 indicates that the real issue is not tongues alone but rather the interpretation of tongues (v.13) whereby it also can edify.

It is also clear from VV 2-5 that Paul is not belitteling tongues . In both cases the contrast are not between tongues and prophecy as to their inherent value, but to the direction of their edification.

Thus my point of disagreement to the position that tongues are the lesser of the gifts. This assertion IMHO has arose from an intellectual view of the gifting and from the abuses of the gift of tongues. I do not feel that it can be supported by scriptures. All gifts are given for the same purpose, although they are manifested differently (healing, miracles ect.) to bring edification to the body and Glory to the Lord. All gifts are given by and operated by the same Spirit, (The Holy Spirit)

1Co 12:4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
And there are diversities of ministrations, and the same Lord.
And there are diversities of workings, but the same God, who worketh all things in all.
But to each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit to profit withal.

All gifts are operated through humans and there in lie the problem

1Pe 4:10 according as each hath received a gift, ministering it among yourselves, as good stewards
of the manifold grace of God; if any man speaketh, speaking as it were oracles of God; if any man ministereth, ministering as of the strength which God supplieth: that in all things God may be glorified through Jesus Christ, whose is the glory and the dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

[Pastor Gary]

Guys, IF it's really the Spirit giving the utterance then the venue doesn't matter. Arguing about when and where tongues are appropriate just screams of flesh in the entire process.

What, then, are we to do with 1 Corinthians 14:26-40 that indicates that one should stop giving out a message (one would assume given utterance by the Spirit) if there is no interpreter present?

And verse 32 says "The spirits of prophets are subject to the control of prophets."

Let me ask, Danny, a hypothetical question? Ever been to Christian concert or Billy Graham-type event? Even though the Spirit was obviously present, did you let out a Pentecostal whoop and speak in tongues real loud, or did you understand that such a manifestation would be off-putting and not appropriate at that time?

[paul]

Sorry for the second post on this. But when I tried to graft
the scriptures it never posted in order. So I had to do a
little work and set it up as a jpeg. Put as to my original
post this is the breakdown of the two verses in question
and why I believe the way I do concerning tongues not
being a lesser of the gifts.

[dawgs10]

how many times in acts do we find people being baptized in the Holy Ghost and tongues not being spoken? i know when paul was baptized it didnt say tongues were spoken but paul went on to say he speaks in tongues more than all of you. just would like to know without counting. and i have heard many say that only one time in acts tongues were spoken publicly. but "church" services were going on in peoples homes at that time so it was worship in a public church service. as public as it could have been at the time without being in the streets.

[Full Quiver]

Gary, maybe this is the heart of our disagreement. The Spirit knows just when the appropriate time is and if HE sees fit then HE will use a willing vessel. I only need be willing not looking for an opportunity. Are you saying that it is we who make the decision as to the when and the appropriateness? I think the referenced verses in Corinthians is Paul teaching us that there should be an interpretation, that we should pray for one, and that if we do pray for one then maybe, just maybe the one that spoke in tongues should learn to be in the Spirit from now on and not in the flesh.

[dawgs10]

Gary, maybe this is the heart of our disagreement. The Spirit knows just when the appropriate time is and if HE sees fit then HE will use a willing vessel. I only need be willing not looking for an opportunity. Are you saying that it is we who make the decision as to the when and the appropriateness? I think the referenced verses in Corinthians is Paul teaching us that there should be an interpretation, that we should pray for one, and that if we do pray for one then maybe, just maybe the one that spoke in tongues should learn to be in the Spirit from now on and not in the flesh.

i like that!!! maybe this will push some cogops to be spirit driven again and stop worring about what people think of us or what the last church growth poll said.