new BDP position paper

[Pastor Gary]

Gary, maybe this is the heart of our disagreement. The Spirit knows just when the appropriate time is and if HE sees fit then HE will use a willing vessel. I only need be willing not looking for an opportunity. Are you saying that it is we who make the decision as to the when and the appropriateness? I think the referenced verses in Corinthians is Paul teaching us that there should be an interpretation, that we should pray for one, and that if we do pray for one then maybe, just maybe the one that spoke in tongues should learn to be in the Spirit from now on and not in the flesh.

You sidestepped my question: do you, Danny Page, feel that there are times in public worship where tongues would be not appropriate, and where you would hold back?

[beckrl]

PG
Do I understand your point of view as being there must be an interpreter present. A person with the gift of interpretation and if no interpreter then him should keep silence?

What, then, are we to do with 1 Corinthians 14:26-40 that indicates that one should stop giving out a message (one would assume given utterance by the Spirit) if there is no interpreter present

[Full Quiver]

Gary, I choose hold back anytime my flesh says speak in tongues whether it be in private or public. I try my best to be submissive everytime the Spirit gives me the utterance whether it be in private or public know matter if there are 10 people or 1000 people present.

[Pastor Gary]

Gary, I choose hold back anytime my flesh says speak in tongues whether it be in private or public. I try my best to be submissive everytime the Spirit gives me the utterance whether it be in private or public know matter if there are 10 people or 1000 people present.

Okay. Your spiritual maturity so far exceeds mine I can't discuss this with you.

[pastorables]

Throughout the Acts of the Apostles, speaking in tongues in the public arena was not seen as a detractor, but as a source of interest to unbelievers and as an enjoyment, even ministry, to believers. We see in multiple references both the attraction that speaking in tongues offered to those in the community and the encouragement for a bolder witness that it gave to the disciples (Acts 2:1–8 ; Acts 4:31–33 ; Acts 10:44–48 ; Acts 19:1–6 ).

Can someone please show me where unbelievers having interest in speaking in tongues can be derived from the listed scriptures or any others? I believe this to be inaccurate and extra-biblical in thought. Upon close inspection of the listed scripture references, we find that it's the believer being interested or intrigued by the tongues (not the unbeliever).

To the contrary, Paul taught that tongues must be used with care in the presence of the unbeliever. In my own ministry, I witnessed an unbeliever leave a service before having the opportunity to hear the preached word due to an overzealous saint edifying themselves through the usage of tongues. I've often wondered how that individual might have been affected given opportunity to hear the gospel. To my knowledge, that was their first and last trip to our church during my entire tenure.

I believe the Statement is well-intentioned, but lacks somewhat in proper biblical exegesis (especially in the area of tongues). I expect a greater level of exegesis from this group of learned men that I esteem and highly respect.

Blessings,
pa

[dawgs10]

Throughout the Acts of the Apostles, speaking in tongues in the public arena was not seen as a detractor, but as a source of interest to unbelievers and as an enjoyment, even ministry, to believers. We see in multiple references both the attraction that speaking in tongues offered to those in the community and the encouragement for a bolder witness that it gave to the disciples (Acts 2:1–8 ; Acts 4:31–33 ; Acts 10:44–48 ; Acts 19:1–6 ).

Can someone please show me where unbelievers having interest in speaking in tongues can be derived from the listed scriptures or any others? I believe this to be inaccurate and extra-biblical in thought. Upon close inspection of the listed scripture references, we find that it's the believer being interested or intrigued by the tongues (not the unbeliever).
To the contrary, Paul taught that tongues must be used with care in the presence of the unbeliever. In my own ministry, I witnessed an unbeliever leave a service before having the opportunity to hear the preached word due to an overzealous saint edifying themselves through the usage of tongues. I've often wondered how that individual might have been affected given opportunity to hear the gospel. To my knowledge, that was their first and last trip to our church during my entire tenure.

I believe the Statement is well-intentioned, but lacks somewhat in proper biblical exegesis (especially in the area of tongues). I expect a greater level of exegesis from this group of learned men that I esteem and highly respect.

Blessings,
pa

have you read acts chapter 2? if you have you need to read it again. over 3000 saved that day because they gathered as the upper room folks spoke in tongues and then peter preached Jesus!! to them. are you kidding!!!

[oletimer]

Upper room is far fexed from the out in the streets, tho I believe that it did flow out into the Streets as the crowds grew. But I wasn't there were you?

The other two involved small groups in most likly simiprivate settings or home gethering.

[dawgs10]

if your think peter preched to 3000 in the upper room you must think it was very large. the crowd heard them speak with tonues and gathered.

[Pastor Gary]

have you read acts chapter 2? if you have you need to read it again. over 3000 saved that day because they gathered as the upper room folks spoke in tongues and then peter preached Jesus!! to them. are you kidding!!!

Can you please cite the scriptural reference for your belief that the Holy Spirit fell in "the upper room?"

I have read Acts exhaustively, analyzing it verse by verse, and can't find that.

[dawgs10]

have you read acts chapter 2? if you have you need to read it again. over 3000 saved that day because they gathered as the upper room folks spoke in tongues and then peter preached Jesus!! to them. are you kidding!!!

Can you please cite the scriptural reference for your belief that the Holy Spirit fell in "the upper room?"

I have read Acts exhaustively, analyzing it verse by verse, and can't find that.

i know what you are getting at. but if you read what i wrote i said as the upperroom folks spoke in tongues not as they were in the upper room they began to speak in tongues. the fact here is that according to verse 6 of chapter two the reason that the crowd gathered is because they heard them speak in known tongues. this was a supernatural event brought on by speaking in tongues in a public place. and when peter preached about 3000 were added to the church. thus answering the question can anyone show me anywhere in the Bible unbelievers interested in tongues where saved because of the the move of the spirit.(tongues) of course thats not the question word for word but that was the question.

[dawgs10]

i am very concerned that there maybe leadership in the Church of God of Prophecy that would question whether or not tongues are useful to the saving of souls. not directed to any one on jude 2 or anyone person.

[Pastor Gary]

i am very concerned that there maybe leadership in the Church of God of Prophecy that would question whether or not tongues are useful to the saving of souls. Understand i am not directing this to anyone on this thread but that should be something that the General Presb. and overseer takes very seriously. we should not have a single bishop in COGOP that does not believe tongues are useful in the process of seeing souls saved. i guess when discussion takes place on this document we will know how people really feel about this subject.

That is not my position at all. You seem to be misunderstanding the issue with the document. The document seems to be placing a LOT of emphasis upon the public use of tongues that is, in my understanding, not in line with scripture. Pentecostals (and I am one) tend to read Acts looking for manifestations, as if that is the emphasis of the book. It is not. Go through verse by verse, and look for every mention of the Spirit at work. Come back and tell us how many of those involve tongues, and how many involve things OTHER than tongues. It is an interesting exercise.

Pushing tongues (a gift) is the wrong emphasis, IMHO. I seek the GIVER, not the gift, and He may choose to manifest His presence in any number of ways, some loud and demonstrative, some quiet and reverent -- but to discount any of His ways and emphasize certain manifestations seems, to me, a distortion of scriptural balance.

[dawgs10]

i am very concerned that there maybe leadership in the Church of God of Prophecy that would question whether or not tongues are useful to the saving of souls. Understand i am not directing this to anyone on this thread but that should be something that the General Presb. and overseer takes very seriously. we should not have a single bishop in COGOP that does not believe tongues are useful in the process of seeing souls saved. i guess when discussion takes place on this document we will know how people really feel about this subject.

That is not my position at all. You seem to be misunderstanding the issue with the document. The document seems to be placing a LOT of emphasis upon the public use of tongues that is, in my understanding, not in line with scripture. Pentecostals (and I am one) tend to read Acts looking for manifestations, as if that is the emphasis of the book. It is not. Go through verse by verse, and look for every mention of the Spirit at work. Come back and tell us how many of those involve tongues, and how many involve things OTHER than tongues. It is an interesting exercise.

Pushing tongues (a gift) is the wrong emphasis, IMHO. I seek the GIVER, not the gift, and He may choose to manifest His presence in any number of ways, some loud and demonstrative, some quiet and reverent -- but to discount any of His ways and emphasize certain manifestations seems, to me, a distortion of scriptural balance.

i agree somewhat. i did go back and change my last reply because i did not want to sound like i was directing it to you. the issue i am seeing and i think it has a lot to do with regions of the country and world we live in is that pentecostals are watering down the Holy Ghost experience. i would like to focus on my response to your first question and ask your opinion on it.

[pastorables]

i am very concerned that there maybe leadership in the Church of God of Prophecy that would question whether or not tongues are useful to the saving of souls. Understand i am not directing this to anyone on this thread but that should be something that the General Presb. and overseer takes very seriously. we should not have a single bishop in COGOP that does not believe tongues are useful in the process of seeing souls saved. i guess when discussion takes place on this document we will know how people really feel about this subject.

True Holy Ghost tongues have Holy Ghost power and will never operate in contradiction to the written Word.

Concerning my original post with regard to those specific scripture references in the Statement as currently written, here they are:

Acts 2:5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven. (These were not unbelievers in the classic sense, but God fearing Jews.)

Acts 4:32 And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: (Again, these were believers.)

Acts 10:45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, (Again, it was believers who were astonished at the Holy Ghost.)

Acts 19:2 2He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? (Again, it's believers who received the Holy Ghost)

You have sidestepped my call for proper exegesis in your desire to set-up a straw man debate. I am all for the proper biblical teaching of true Holy Ghost power and miracles, including tongues. I am not for things which are accepted as the true move of God, including tongues, when they contradict clear biblical exegesis on the subject. I didn't roll off the turnip truck yesterday, even though I have ignorantly believed and promoted things in the past which contradicted sound Bible teaching.

To the contrary, Paul had this to say about tongues and how they affect unbelievers when not operated properly:

1 Corinthians 14:11 Therefore if I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be unto him that speaketh a barbarian, and he that speaketh shall be a barbarian unto me.

1 Corinthians 14:23 If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?

1 Corinthians 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

1 Corinthians 14:40 Let all things be done decently and in order.

Again, I agree that we shouldn't quench God's Spirit. I agree that we should teach and preach the power of the Holy Ghost. I agree that the Holy Ghost is sovereign and operates as he wills. However, I do not agree that tongues supercede the preached Word, or even other spiritual gifts, with regard to the saving of souls and the Bible will not support such either.

Blessings,
pa

[dawgs10]

i am very concerned that there maybe leadership in the Church of God of Prophecy that would question whether or not tongues are useful to the saving of souls. Understand i am not directing this to anyone on this thread but that should be something that the General Presb. and overseer takes very seriously. we should not have a single bishop in COGOP that does not believe tongues are useful in the process of seeing souls saved. i guess when discussion takes place on this document we will know how people really feel about this subject.

True Holy Ghost tongues have Holy Ghost power and will never operate in contradiction to the written Word.

Concerning my original post with regard to those specific scripture references in the Statement as currently written, here they are:

Acts 2:5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven. (These were not unbelievers in the classic sense, but God fearing Jews.)

Acts 4:32 And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: (Again, these were believers.)

Acts 10:45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, (Again, it was believers who were astonished at the Holy Ghost.)

Acts 19:2 2He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? (Again, it's believers who received the Holy Ghost)

You have sidestepped my call for proper exegesis in your desire to set-up a straw man debate. I am all for the proper biblical teaching of true Holy Ghost power and miracles, including tongues. I am not for things which are accepted as the true move of God, including tongues, when they contradict clear biblical exegesis on the subject. I didn't roll off the turnip truck yesterday, even though I have ignorantly believed and promoted things in the past which contradicted sound Bible teaching.

To the contrary, Paul had this to say about tongues and how they affect unbelievers when not operated properly:

1 Corinthians 14:11 Therefore if I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be unto him that speaketh a barbarian, and he that speaketh shall be a barbarian unto me.

1 Corinthians 14:23 If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?

1 Corinthians 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

1 Corinthians 14:40 Let all things be done decently and in order.

Again, I agree that we shouldn't quench God's Spirit. I agree that we should teach and preach the power of the Holy Ghost. I agree that the Holy Ghost is sovereign and operates as he wills. However, I do not agree that tongues supercede the preached Word, or even other spiritual gifts, with regard to the saving of souls and the Bible will not support such either.

Blessings,
pa

those people had not been saved in the real sense if they had not excepted Jesus. thats unbelievers. you asked and i gave you a passage. Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. they recieved his word and were baptized and added to the church. acts2 37-41.