new BDP position paper

[Pastor Gary]

...pentecostals are watering down the Holy Ghost experience. i would like to focus on my response to your first question and ask your opinion on it.

But, with all due respect, that suggests that the Holy Ghost experience is all about the shout, tongues and emotional release, rather than empowerment for service -- which is what I believe is the real Pentecostal experience.

[dawgs10]

i am very concerned that there maybe leadership in the Church of God of Prophecy that would question whether or not tongues are useful to the saving of souls. Understand i am not directing this to anyone on this thread but that should be something that the General Presb. and overseer takes very seriously. we should not have a single bishop in COGOP that does not believe tongues are useful in the process of seeing souls saved. i guess when discussion takes place on this document we will know how people really feel about this subject.

True Holy Ghost tongues have Holy Ghost power and will never operate in contradiction to the written Word.

Concerning my original post with regard to those specific scripture references in the Statement as currently written, here they are:

Acts 2:5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven. (These were not unbelievers in the classic sense, but God fearing Jews.)

Acts 4:32 And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: (Again, these were believers.)

Acts 10:45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, (Again, it was believers who were astonished at the Holy Ghost.)

Acts 19:2 2He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? (Again, it's believers who received the Holy Ghost)

You have sidestepped my call for proper exegesis in your desire to set-up a straw man debate. I am all for the proper biblical teaching of true Holy Ghost power and miracles, including tongues. I am not for things which are accepted as the true move of God, including tongues, when they contradict clear biblical exegesis on the subject. I didn't roll off the turnip truck yesterday, even though I have ignorantly believed and promoted things in the past which contradicted sound Bible teaching.

To the contrary, Paul had this to say about tongues and how they affect unbelievers when not operated properly:

1 Corinthians 14:11 Therefore if I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be unto him that speaketh a barbarian, and he that speaketh shall be a barbarian unto me.

1 Corinthians 14:23 If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?

1 Corinthians 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

1 Corinthians 14:40 Let all things be done decently and in order.

Again, I agree that we shouldn't quench God's Spirit. I agree that we should teach and preach the power of the Holy Ghost. I agree that the Holy Ghost is sovereign and operates as he wills. However, I do not agree that tongues supercede the preached Word, or even other spiritual gifts, with regard to the saving of souls and the Bible will not support such either.

Blessings,
pa

i agree and also, except the final verses in corinthians 14 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues. Let all things be done decently and in order. If its the Holy Ghost it will be decent and in order. and both should be the focus.

[dawgs10]

...pentecostals are watering down the Holy Ghost experience. i would like to focus on my response to your first question and ask your opinion on it.

But, with all due respect, that suggests that the Holy Ghost experience is all about the shout, tongues and emotional release, rather than empowerment for service -- which is what I believe is the real Pentecostal experience.

thus the debate. the outward manafestation will draw people to a place of empowerment for service which is the Pentecostal experience as written in Acts 2.

[pastorables]

those people had not been saved in the real sense if they had not excepted Jesus. thats unbelievers. you asked and i gave you a passage. Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. the recieved his word and were baptized and added to the church. acts2 37-41.

First of all, I hope you understand that I'm not arguing the point, only trying to clarify my position.

Once again, you sidestep "line upon line, precept upon precept" study of this issue to try and build an entire point on one scripture passage.

It is erroneous to build a thesis upon one text, but to address your desire to use Acts 2 as your only support scripture, the miracle here was in unbelievers hearing their own language being spoken by those who could not have known the language otherwise. (The other three scriptures in the Statement are clearly dealing with believers.)

This would not be in contradiction to Paul's teaching on needing an interpreter. They were able to comprehend what was being said in their own language, thus nullifying the need for interpreters in this instance.

For all we know, they could have been hearing "Repent and believe upon Jesus Christ" in their own native language.

Blessings,
pa

[dawgs10]

those people had not been saved in the real sense if they had not excepted Jesus. thats unbelievers. you asked and i gave you a passage. Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. the recieved his word and were baptized and added to the church. acts2 37-41.

First of all, I hope you understand that I'm not arguing the point, only trying to clarify my position.

Once again, you sidestep "line upon line, precept upon precept" study of this issue to try and build an entire point on one scripture passage.

It is erroneous to build a thesis upon one text, but to address your desire to use Acts 2 as your only support scripture, the miracle here was in unbelievers hearing their own language being spoken by those who could not have known the language otherwise. (The other three scriptures in the Statement are clearly dealing with believers.)

This would not be in contradiction to Paul's teaching on needing an interpreter. They were able to comprehend what was being said in their own language, thus nullifying the need for interpreters in this instance.

For all we know, they could have been hearing "Repent and believe upon Jesus Christ" in their own native language.

Blessings,
pa

which was a known tongue to those that heard it and a unknown tongue to those speaking it. thus answering your question about not knowing a single passage that unsaved were saved because of the gift of tongues.

i also submitted the last two verses found in Corin. 14 that clarifed the teaching in the entire chapter. i dont see any reason to type out all scripture to build my thesis. it was found in your post. the fact is you asked for one and i gave you one.

[Full Quiver]

Gary, I choose hold back anytime my flesh says speak in tongues whether it be in private or public. I try my best to be submissive everytime the Spirit gives me the utterance whether it be in private or public know matter if there are 10 people or 1000 people present.


Okay. Your spiritual maturity so far exceeds mine I can't discuss this with you.

So you think its ok to speak in tongues in yourself and you do so?

[pastorables]

which was a known tongue to those that heard it and a unknown tongue to those speaking it. thus answering your question about not knowing a single passage that unsaved were saved because of the gift of tongues.

Let's be clear though that they were saved as a result of true Holy Ghost tongues used within the guidelines of scripture as the tongues being heard declared the works of God.

Acts 2:11 ...we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.

These were tongues associated with the declaration of prophet Joel that your sons and daughters shall prophesy. These were not the tongues of personal edification that Paul dealt with at the Corinthian church.

The Statement goes beyond this thought in scope, however, implying that unbelievers are fascinated by tongues in general. I don't find that in the scripture as Paul's teaching seems to define the unbeliever's attitude toward tongues in a different light (my own experience with unbelievers unfamiliar with Pentecostalism would line up with Paul's teachings).

The account in Acts was not one of unknown tongues in general, but rather one of "tongues of prophesy" clearly understood by the hearers and this point is important to our discussion.

pa

[dawgs10]

which was a known tongue to those that heard it and a unknown tongue to those speaking it. thus answering your question about not knowing a single passage that unsaved were saved because of the gift of tongues.

Let's be clear though that they were saved as a result of true Holy Ghost tongues used within the guidelines of scripture as the tongues being heard declared the works of God.

Acts 2:11 ...we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.

These were tongues associated with the declaration of prophet Joel that your sons and daughters shall prophesy. These were not the tongues of personal edification that Paul dealt with at the Corinthian church.

The Statement goes beyond this thought in scope, however, implying that unbelievers are fascinated by tongues in general. I don't find that in the scripture as Paul's teaching seems to define the unbeliever's attitude toward tongues in a different light (my own experience with unbelievers unfamiliar with Pentecostalism would line up with Paul's teachings).

The account in Acts was not one of unknown tongues in general, but rather one of "tongues of prophesy" clearly understood by the hearers and this point is important to our discussion.

pa

i will tell you from my own experiences that we have had many at Central Community Church from other backgrounds. When the spirit speaks thru tongues and is done in order as the Spirit always is we hear the same thing every time. There is no doubt that was God!!!!! saved or not!!!!

[pastorables]

i will tell you from my own experiences that we have had many at Central Community Church from other backgrounds. When the spirit speaks thru tongues and is done in order as the Spirit always is we hear the same thing every time. There is no doubt that was God!!!!! saved or not!!!!

The issue here is not our individual experiences, yours or mine, although they can be secondary to the discussion when compared to scripture.

The issue at hand is the Statement being presented to the International Assembly. I am only attempting to use sound scriptural exegesis to point out the need for amendments in the current document.

God bless,
pa

[Pastor Gary]

Gary, I choose hold back anytime my flesh says speak in tongues whether it be in private or public. I try my best to be submissive everytime the Spirit gives me the utterance whether it be in private or public know matter if there are 10 people or 1000 people present.


Okay. Your spiritual maturity so far exceeds mine I can't discuss this with you.

So you think its ok to speak in tongues in yourself and you do so?

Danny, I closed this discussion with you. You are way too religious for me. You give the answers that tend to make you look good with no introspection or transparency.

[dawgs10]

i will tell you from my own experiences that we have had many at Central Community Church from other backgrounds. When the spirit speaks thru tongues and is done in order as the Spirit always is we hear the same thing every time. There is no doubt that was God!!!!! saved or not!!!!

The issue here is not our individual experiences, yours or mine, although they can be secondary to the discussion when compared to scripture.

The issue at hand is the Statement being presented to the International Assembly. I am only attempting to use sound scriptural exegesis to point out the need for amendments in the current document.

God bless,
pa

sound scriptural exegesis in the light of practical down to earth experience. those together will make a good church. i went back and read the document. sound as sound can be. if the one sentence bothers you im sure on or two words can be changed.

[paul]

have you read acts chapter 2? if you have you need to read it again. over 3000 saved that day because they gathered as the upper room folks spoke in tongues and then peter preached Jesus!! to them. are you kidding!!!

Can you please cite the scriptural reference for your belief that the Holy Spirit fell in "the upper room?"

I have read Acts exhaustively, analyzing it verse by verse, and can't find that.

Though their might not be an actual reference that says “They were in the upper room when the Holy Spirit descended upon them, it certainly would not be out of place to make that assumption. Note Act 1:12 Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is nigh unto Jerusalem, a Sabbath day's journey off.
Act 1:13 And when they were come in, they went up into the upper chamber, where they were abiding; both Peter and John and James and Andrew, Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon the Zealot, and Judas the son of James.
Act 1:14 these all with one accord continued steadfastly in prayer, with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren.

They were in obedience to the command of Jesus.. Act 1:4 and, being assembled together with them, he charged them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the promise of the Father, which, said he, ye heard from me:
Act 1:5 for John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized in the Holy Spirit not many days hence.
In VV 15-26 One of the purposes of the prayer meeting was to choose the replacement for Judas.
So PG you might be technically correct not necessarily right. One could suggest and not be out of context to state that the place where they were staying ( an upper room ) was the place they had the meeting, where they choose Matthias, were the 120 were gathered. And then in Chapter Act 2:1 And when the day of Pentecost was now come, they were all together in one place.
Act 2:2 And suddenly there came from heaven a sound as of the rushing of a mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
Act 2:3 And there appeared unto them tongues parting asunder, like as of fire; and it sat upon each one of them.
Act 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Interesting that they were staying in the upper chamber, but on the day of Pentecost the Holy Spirit filled the whole house. Most likely down stairs and the upper room or chamber.

Also interesting in Act 2:6 And when this sound was heard, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speaking in his own language.
Act 2:7 And they were all amazed and marveled, saying, Behold, are not all these that speak Galilaeans?
Act 2:8 And how hear we, every man in our own language wherein we were born?

It does not say the sound of many languages, but rather THIS SOUND. Could it be that as they were speaking in other tongues not necessarily different languages, but by the spirit each one heard or understood it as their own language ?

While ministering in foreign countries I have been preaching and using an interpreter and the interpreter turn to me and tell me that the people were understanding me perfectly in their language, even the common man.

I think in our quest for order our desire to be a progressive movement, we might just be quenching the Holy Spirit and not allowing Him to move freely as we should. IMHO.

[dawgs10]

have you read acts chapter 2? if you have you need to read it again. over 3000 saved that day because they gathered as the upper room folks spoke in tongues and then peter preached Jesus!! to them. are you kidding!!!

Can you please cite the scriptural reference for your belief that the Holy Spirit fell in "the upper room?"

I have read Acts exhaustively, analyzing it verse by verse, and can't find that.

Though their might not be an actual reference that says “They were in the upper room when the Holy Spirit descended upon them, it certainly would not be out of place to make that assumption. Note Act 1:12 Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is nigh unto Jerusalem, a Sabbath day's journey off.
Act 1:13 And when they were come in, they went up into the upper chamber, where they were abiding; both Peter and John and James and Andrew, Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon the Zealot, and Judas the son of James.
Act 1:14 these all with one accord continued steadfastly in prayer, with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren.

They were in obedience to the command of Jesus.. Act 1:4 and, being assembled together with them, he charged them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the promise of the Father, which, said he, ye heard from me:
Act 1:5 for John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized in the Holy Spirit not many days hence.
In VV 15-26 One of the purposes of the prayer meeting was to choose the replacement for Judas.
So PG you might be technically correct not necessarily right. One could suggest and not be out of context to state that the place where they were staying ( an upper room ) was the place they had the meeting, where they choose Matthias, were the 120 were gathered. And then in Chapter Act 2:1 And when the day of Pentecost was now come, they were all together in one place.
Act 2:2 And suddenly there came from heaven a sound as of the rushing of a mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
Act 2:3 And there appeared unto them tongues parting asunder, like as of fire; and it sat upon each one of them.
Act 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Interesting that they were staying in the upper chamber, but on the day of Pentecost the Holy Spirit filled the whole house. Most likely down stairs and the upper room or chamber.

Also interesting in Act 2:6 And when this sound was heard, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speaking in his own language.
Act 2:7 And they were all amazed and marveled, saying, Behold, are not all these that speak Galilaeans?
Act 2:8 And how hear we, every man in our own language wherein we were born?

It does not say the sound of many languages, but rather THIS SOUND. Could it be that as they were speaking in other tongues not necessarily different languages, but by the spirit each one heard or understood it as their own language ?

While ministering in foreign countries I have been preaching and using an interpreter and the interpreter turn to me and tell me that the people were understanding me perfectly in their language, even the common man.

I think in our quest for order our desire to be a progressive movement, we might just be quenching the Holy Spirit and not allowing Him to move freely as we should. IMHO.

ding, ding, ding, i think you have it!!! putting God in a box and saying its the only way is the first signs of a dieing church!!!

[oletimer]

All though Paul covered it in his post, I would like to high light a couple of thoughts.

1.
Ac 2:6
Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.

I believe that they started out in the Upper Room but as the "noised" became news to the surrounding area and people began to garther in, it most likly moved in to the street.

2.

Ac 2:7
And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?
Ac 2:8
And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?

The fact that they heard them in their own language indicates to me that they most likly spoke in the "heavenly tongue" and was understood in their own language.

Paul:
While ministering in foreign countries I have been preaching and using an interpreter and the interpreter turn to me and tell me that the people were understanding me perfectly in their language, even the common man.

This is not the first time that I have heard of this happen in our times.

I know that this off the subject somewhat, but it also gives light that when the Holy Ghost is given the "one mind and one accord", yes we will have tongues in close and open places. People will come to see what is going on. I believe that is what happen on the day of Pentecost.

Not sure just what the BDP is trying to do but I'm being in large services and small group and when the Holy Ghost is working and it is the Holy Ghost there never seem to be a problem.

Having ones life right and willing to be used by the HG seems to be normed for Holy Ghost manifestation, where and how many shouldn't be a problem. Not being right before God should be.

My dimes worth;

[pastorjason]

When did the general assembly give the commitees the ability authority to make blanket unchallenged statements for us?