The elephant in the room

[Pastor Gary]

There has been endless discussion about -- let's face it -- one female in one photo and what she was wearing. Who here was aroused, seduced or drawn into sin from looking at her in that photo?

Anybody? Nah, me neither.

[Russell Roberts]

Me either Pastor Gary. Couldn't they have found someone a bit more er, shapely to baptize?

[dolfan]

Can't say I was.

[MacUser]

Sheesh.. zero here.
My heart rejoiced in the testimony that they were baptized and excited.

I thank God I am under AMAZING Grace and not mosaic law.
Anyone whom tries to resurrect the law is just flat out wasting your experience or better yet has no true understanding yet of what CHRIST really did on the cross.

[Sherry]

I wasn't either!

[paul]

I wasn't either!

that's good to know

[RaceRunner]

The elephant in the room has NOTHING to do with the young lady convert in question. I actually feel sorry for her in that a whole bunch of "christian" strangers have spent an enormous amount of time publically entertaining themselves discussing her appearance.

The picture should have never been posted without her permission since it was naturally assumed it would cause such a commotion. One day, the laws of libel & slander may actually apply to discussion forums.

If the new convert in question saw this forum...I pray she doesn't even hear about it....but I am sure many persons like her do....I wouldn't blame her or them for running from christianity screaming.

This forum should be ashamed. Your or my approval or disapproval of her appearance is irrelevant in this particular venue.


The actual ELEPHANT in the room...the question not asked...deals with Ministers of the Gospel in general who are in joyous pursuit of blurring the lines between christians and the World.

Can shepherds biblically teach their flocks about God's Holiness while rushing themselves to embrace the world's standards of living?

There are ways to teach...with love & humility....your flock, a new convert, even a stranger on how to reverence the Holy...(Baptism in this instance) ....separating themselves from the influences of worldliness…especially while observing a Holy ordinance. Paul strongly admonished and commanded the Church about separating their feasts from the Holy Communion.

Although many claim that the standards of modesty are variable from person to person...region to region...country to country....the standard and light of God's Holiness remains the same...without variableness or shadow of turning.

Our personal modesty is only influenced by our pursuit of God's Holiness. How can a new convert yearn to pursue Holiness without a minister’s or flock’s loving leadership and example to follow…..especially in the observances of the Holy??


Ezekiel’s cry definitely resonates to christianity and it's ministers today.

Eze 22:26 Her priests have violated my law, and have profaned mine holy things: they have put no difference between the holy and profane, neither have they shewed difference between the unclean and the clean, and have hid their eyes from my sabbaths, and I am profaned among them.

Eze 22:28 And her prophets have daubed them with untempered morter, seeing vanity, and divining lies unto them, saying, Thus saith the Lord GOD, when the LORD hath not spoken.

Eze 22:30 And I sought for a man among them, that should make up the hedge, and stand in the gap before me for the land, that I should not destroy it: but I found none.


Remember:

“…The earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God”. Rom 8:19

The world is waiting for Ministers of the Gospel to manifest Salt & Light.

And as Salt & Light we must deny “ungodliness and worldly lusts,”… living “soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;” Tit 2:12

[RamboPreacher]

no.

[Russell Roberts]

I think she was simply following the biblical admonition to "be not forgetful to entertain strangers."

[scooter]

The elephant is the seat of the scornful.

Normal christians have no problem with such a public baptism.

It is only the hyper spiritual elitist, who wags their finger at others with the intent of shaming, that have a problem with the setting.

They forget that that seat is just as bad as the way of sinners and that the people that they have hurt through such judgeMENTAL postitions are just as lost as the ones lost to liberality.

They forget that in the instant that they cast such judgement against God called men they are breaching the Law of Christ moreso and more clearly than any act of immodesty.

Think that will change their mind, nope. If God can't do it neither will we.

When heaven is rejoicing and THE CHURCH of god frowns realize the disconnect isn't up there.

[paul]

"RaceRunner"]

Although many claim that the standards of modesty are variable from person to person...region to region...country to country....the standard and light of God's Holiness remains the same...without variableness or shadow of turning.

This is how half truths come in to play. Your statement is both true and false.

The standard of God's holiness remains the same..without variableness and shadow of turning. TRUE

You are using that scripture to imply and support an argument that their should be no difference in the view of modesty around the world, different cultures. FALSE

No offense to those on the forum from Alabama, which is were your flag says you are from, but the whole world does not live in Alabama, nor in a southern gospel belt mind set and to modesty. To often we are quilty of telling God what His standards of holiness are, in light of what we have come to accept as our standards.

God's standard is what is placed in our hearts. I can look at bare breast all day long on the mission field, pray for the ladies, see them breast feed the children and never be bothered by it, nor feel embarrased.

But if I happen to see the bare breast by a lady bending over in a lobby, by accident, I look away. Why? because there is a difference. I know the difference. And to me that is what this thread is about. As christians we know the difference.

I am glad that God not only looks at my heart but also knows my heart.

[dolfan]

RR, I disagree, as you might've expected.

It is relevant. Look at how pastors are basing practical pastoral decisions on this idea of modesty. I repeat: Not one person here is advocating immodesty. Not one. If someone has, please point out where. You haven't shown, nor has anyone else, where the holy has not been reverenced on the occasion of this baptism. All of this "controversy" was ginned up by those criticizing the swimsuit baptism in the first place. Rahab posted it to share the good news about someone being baptized. To blame the heat generated by the discussion on the people responding to and taking issue with those who found fault to start with is misplaced.

I'm overjoyed, as you can tell, with the fact that you folks in TCOG (the bulk of the source of criticism of this baptism) have discovered the "line" between Christians and the world, because you've managed to illustrate for us all just how easily it gets straddled. All of the ways in which each of you who have cited this "blurring", even without using that particular word, are just as involved in "worldliness" as anyone. Withdrawing from specific taboo practices is no more a separation from the world than you can separate carbon dioxide from the air by refusing to breathe. Worldliness, according to you all, is gauged first and foremostly by outward appearances. Worldliness is like every other sinful way -- a corruption of the heart, the soul. It is already poisoning way before the flower of it ever shows up in one's appearance. Pride of life is more subtle than you're willing to accredit. Personally, I see far more of it in the criticism of PG's family than in anything I've seen or read in this whole discussion so far.

You've repeatedly identified, all of you guys, the need for the love of and pursuit of holiness. But, you've done so as a way of contrast as if what happened on this beach was anything but that. Still and yet, not one of you has --- even up to this moment --- stated how or why this woman or her pastor/leader was wrong. You continue to carry on as if it ought to be so clear to everyone that it was wrong that to question or suggest otherwise is also wrong. So, since you've decided to leap into this contest of thought, RR, where is the offense by the leaders here? Specify it. Lay it out. Help us blind, poor and spiritually bankrupt see the error of our ways.

I long to see a separation between the holy and profane. I long to see the treatment of someone who has come to faith as a sacred thing, the assumption that a person is not profane who will crawl out into the water for the sake of immersing another person who's spent their lives in confessed sinfulness so they can acknowledge their trust in Jesus Christ, the disappearance of the profanity of self-righteousness in the presence and sight of a God who is quite able to be and do what He wants without your assessments of His work. Say all you want that you just can't bring yourself to agree that this is okay. That's a matter of conscience and no one can dispute that. But, when you step over into claiming that what these people did on that beach is somehow not holy, somehow not divided from the profane, somehow infected with irreverence, that's a matter of judgment and it is one that is not only uncalled for here but is patently and manfestly groundless. The only reason to entertain that kind of criticism in oneself is the kind of character that you are quick to condemn, a blurring of the holy and profane, wrapping it up in an appealing package of sanctification that is anything but.

Shame, indeed. Who are you to rebuke an elder in the Lord? Who are you to stand in the place of a prophet and call to account a man who baptized a lady in the name of the Lord you say you follow and love? You have no authority over this man and his church, and you have no authority and no say-so over any of these other ministers here who have answered the criticisms of some TCOG/former TCOG'ers. Where is your sense of modesty, ma'am?

[RaceRunner]

blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.....and blah.
For some reason...I didn't expect you doofuses to agree with me.


Mat 22:29 ...Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.


To the ministers:

2Pe 2:18-19

(18) For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.
(19) While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.

[paul]

blah, blah, blah.

Mat 22:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.


2Pe 2:18-22
(18) For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.
(19) While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.
(20) For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
(21) For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
(22) But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, (Prov. 26:11) The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

Once again you do the same with scriptures. You are not quoting scriptures for the value of the word of God. You are using them only in reference to what your preconceived notions are of Lust, wantoness, pollutions and your standard. Shame on you for so causualy tossing the world of God around.

[RaceRunner]

blah, blah, blah.

Mat 22:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.


2Pe 2:18-22
(18) For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.
(19) While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.
(20) For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
(21) For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
(22) But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, (Prov. 26:11) The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

Once again you do the same with scriptures. You are not quoting scriptures for the value of the word of God. You are using them only in reference to what your preconceived notions are of Lust, wantoness, pollutions and your standard. Shame on you for so causualy tossing the world of God around.

Even more error on your part.

For some reason, I'm fairly "unconcerned" if the ministers on this forum agree with me. It's the "lurkers" I care about.