I suggest we all become Muslims.

[Russell Roberts]

They have some really cool rules. They can beat the hell out of their women and hide them under a Hijab. And God help the one that peeps out from under her veil. These are a very holy people. They don't drink, don't smoke, don't use tobacco. Plus, we could kill everybody that doesn't agree with us. Convert them at the edge of a knife blade. And sexual immorality, heck, if some girl commits fornication we could all go bash her head in with Rocks (but just the girls please).

Oh Lord, teach us to be holy like the Muslims. Let them light the way for us wayward Christians. May we learn to circumcise our women so they don't experience the evil evil pleasure of orgasm. After all we, who are made in your image, know that any form of pleasure is a WICKED ABOMINATION. It's of the devil.

[PastorDaniel]

Now that's a bright idea... ....

Your point is duly taken and noted for the record...here...here...

[rough_rider]

They don't cuss either...

[Brian]

I know your trying to be funny by comparing the extremes of radical islam to what has been said here about certain modesty issues but dude come on it just aint no where near the same! let someone say that people should be modest and people come out of the woodwork saying "oh, noooooo you didnt, you can't tell meeee to be modest you ol backwards hick prude! I can do what I want when I want and however I want and there is NOTHING that no backwoods conservative is is gonna do to tell me different!"

Why must people always go to such extremes? Why is it that you make a comparison of someone who suggests modesty and presenting a pure and chaste personallity to being a muslim extremist who would just as soon kill you than look at you in a t-shirt and short? No one is saying that! No one is advocating keeping there women prisoners in there own home or killing them if they step out of line. It is truly truly offensive to people be be treated with such distain just because they embrase attributes of virtuous living.

[Pastor Gary]

No one is advocating keeping there women prisoners in there own home or killing them if they step out of line. It is truly truly offensive to people be be treated with such distain just because they embrase attributes of virtuous living.

Brian, I suspect that Russell is using the absurd to point out the absurdity of expecting women to wear something other than swimwear to the beach. Where people swim. Where wearing heavy layers of clothing could result in death by drowning. Where pretty much everybody is wearing swimwear, typically, so being dressed that way doesn't draw attention to a person -- being dressed otherwise does.

[Russell Roberts]

True dat Pastor Gary. I am almost at a loss for words. We Christians want to read the bible as a list of rules. It simply is not a list of rules to live by though vast throngs of Christians want to make it that. The bible is a story about God and creation. God loves creation and came to redeem it and we must understand the role we play in the story.

If you want rules, here they are: Love God, Love your Neighbor. Those are the rules. We seem to be so enamored with sin and behavior we forget that God wants to love others through us. In fulfilling these goals - the goals to love God and our neighbor - what difference does it make how women dress or whether someone actually gets turned on by looking at them? Or, God forbid, if a women wears a bathing suit to a baptism.

We are so concerned with controlling other people's behavior that we don't have any energy left to actually extend God's love to the world...to take the pain of the world into ourselves and redeem it. If some are so weak and pathetic that they can't engage a culture where wearing a bikini is the norm you better stay at the house with the t.v. off and reading theology books (oddly this sounds like me)

How can we engage a world - extend God's love to them when we have totally alienated them by such stupid and arbitrary rules of what defines holiness. What makes you or anybody else my brother is your faith in Jesus Christ. PERIOD! Attempting to set up other arbitrary methods to determine who is 'in' and who is 'out' is pure and simple idolatry and it STINKS.

[Brian]

What makes you or anybody else my brother is your faith in Jesus Christ. PERIOD! Attempting to set up other arbitrary methods to determine who is 'in' and who is 'out' is pure and simple idolatry and it STINKS.

And you have just went to one of those extreme sides that I was talking about. You make the claim that NOTHING matters eccept someones faith in Jesus. Really? Is that your claim? Because some homosexuals have faith in Jesus but they display a behaviour that He calls an abomination. But hey, behaviour doesn't matter right? I can behave any ol way I want and still be cool with God cause He's an OG (original gansta) and we keeps it real! Please.

Look, I get what your saying, I do. But when you frame your point of view to show that God doesn't give a hoot nanny how we behave as long as we have faith in Christ you do a disservice to all those saints who have given there lives for the cause, who cry out for justice against the wicked.

If you will notice, I have not said one time that I had a problem with beach go'ers. I use to live at the beach and we would all go there after Sun. service and then meet back at church in the evening. And yes, I wore swim shorts and the women there wore bikinis and bathing suits. I have no problem with it. But just like with the recent discussions of faith vs medical care I CARE ABOUT PEOPLE, more specifically or brothers and sisters in Christ. And I don't like it when other christians call other christians "stupid" and "ignorant" or controlling over there women and whatever. I care for the church, the body, all of us are parts of one another but we will quick fast and in a hurry tell another christian off in heartbeat if they say something that rubs us the wrong way.
Thats where my issue lies.

Sorry to come off so strong, but sometimes it seems we will rip apart our very own body but use kid gloves when dealing with the world and non believers. I don't get it.

[Russell Roberts]

Brian, first of all, I never made that kind of a claim. Does behavior matter? Absolutely. That was Paul's point in I Corinthians. What we do in this body matters.

The principles of loving God and loving our neighbor is what really should guide our behavior rather than attempting to enforce our personal standards of holiness on others.

You sound incredulous that there are homosexuals that have faith in Christ. Well, guess what. There are. They struggle with sinful inclinations just like you do. But it is convenient for us to paint the sins of others with much darker paint than with our own sins.

None of what I had to say was directed towards you. Apparently you thought it was. Do me a favor. Don't assume that something I say is directed towards you unless I address you personally.

[dawgs10]

what kind of swimsuit to the beach is the issue for me. if you have spent any time on a beach or a swimming pool you know theres swimsuits and theres SWIMSUITS!!!! thats my point!!!

[Shepherd]

[

[Pastor Gary]

You will have to settle for saying that they are of the devil and are stinking, stupid idolators.

...cause you know how that wins people to Christ.

"...do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, tolerance and patience, not realizing that God's kindness leads you toward repentance?"
Romans 2:4 (NIV)

[oletimer]

Russell, as is said of the leopard, you still have your spots. What is werd is that I almost agree with one of your post, for got which one, but the rest relate the same old you.

I know that you are going to come back at me, but I'm not going to pay you any attention.

[Brian]

...cause you know how that wins people to Christ.

Pastor Gary, I hope you know that I have come to respect and admire you over the years. You have been a sort of Pastor to me when I have not been in fellowship. So this isn't really directed toward you, even though I want to use your quote as a jumping point.

Even though many people here are displaying an air of acceptance and inclusion what does the new convert have to look forward to but being ripped apart by there fellow brethern if they express concern over any number of topics that many of the long time christians here disagree with? I was on the phone with a friend today who has read over some of the posts as of late on jude2 (not because of my direction, he just read on his own) and he said that he would be scared to be a new christian around some of the people here lately. There have been some really mean spirited things said about fellow christians and I have to say I am seriously shocked! And I am not easily shocked Gary. I have seen alot, done alot, and been through alot but the vengfull vile displays of utter distain have perplexed me. I'm sorry, I just don't get it. Some of us will hug the neck of the newcomer offering hope and change and relief from a cruel hard world only to cut them to the bone once they become a seasoned believers. Knowing this, why would they convert?

[Pastor Gary]

...cause you know how that wins people to Christ.

Pastor Gary, I hope you know that I have come to respect and admire you over the years. You have been a sort of Pastor to me when I have not been in fellowship. So this isn't really directed toward you, even though I want to use your quote as a jumping point.

Brian, this is a forum for discussion and debate; it is the proper, supposedly safe, place for such spirited debate. I agree, this is not the place I would send baby believers from my church, your church or ANYbodies church, because they would have trouble understanding that we can all disagree, even in a spirited way, and still love each other when all is said and done.

Chis (Poimen) and I are friends. When I spoke at a church in Alabama he drove some distance to come hear me preach and drove me to my wife who was in the hospital. He is a good man. He is passionate about this topic, and -- IMHO he is out of balance in his views; he probably feels the same way about my views. That being said, I'd let him take me to Ruths Chris and buy me a huge steak! (But I would leave the tip, since I think he's cheap in that area!)

In other words, I love these debates, but seriously -- SERIOUSLY -- you can't personalize these things and let them divide you.

[Brian]

Actually it was you in another thread that said "We seem to be so enamored with sin and behavior we forget that God wants to love others through us."
and, "We are so concerned with controlling other people's behavior that we don't have any energy left to actually extend God's love to the world..."

I am not throwing stones at you brother, but it definately seems as if you are implying that the behaviour of an idividual is of no cosequence, only that they have faith if Jesus. If I am wrong then please forgive me. But when you make statements like "what difference does it make how women dress or whether someone actually gets turned on by looking at them?"
Some people would say that it makes a world of a difference. The experts say that the majority of our human communication is non verbal. We say ALOT by not saying anything at all. If you think that we are not "saying something" by how we act, move, and yes even dress then I don't think you are being honest with yourself.
When I use to go clubbing there were certain things a would do, wear, or act like to maximize my success at picking up a girl. Don't you think women do the same?
And I am not trying to demonize women, I am simply trying to say that you can't take things like dress and attitude out of the equation when speaking of morality and charactor.