Rethinking, Revisiting, Relearning

[ImaPK]

Now this is where it's gonna get dicey. Since 1903 the Church-be it COG,COGOP or TCOG-has "implied"(though not officially) that they were the "one fold". I never bought into that. For several reasons too. Number one, I find no scripture to support the claim while finding several that "shoot it down".(Don't ask me book,chapter and verse)One says "other sheep which are not of this fold are mine also".One says at the rapture that "those who are dead in Christ shall rise up followed by the saints who are alive".Does that mean that any who followed Christ prior to 1903 are doomed to Hell? Does that mean that Christians such as Billy Graham and Mother Theresa ain't gonna make it? Does that mean that only those COGs prior to 1943 will or won't make it? Does it mean that those in COGOP prior to 1993 are doomed or will they make it? Does it mean that all those who are "earnestly searching" in independent churches will be cast aside? Christ said that he would "draw all men unto him". He called it "His church". I take that to mean that if you follow the teachings of the BIBLE(not a denomination) and serve the Lord you have a pretty good chance of making it. The Pharisees and Sadduces followed their own "doctrine" and look where it got them. Yeah I know what my parents believed-first in COGOP and then in TCOG- and I respected them for their beliefs. But like I've said several times on J2, I didn't always agree with their beliefs.

[RaceRunner]

Racerunner said:

Whatever you say Paul.....why don't you and Jason go thrash it out together in the doctrinal forum. I'm sure ya'll will have a grand time!

Once again your post make absolutely no sense. I have read jasons post. It appears that he and I would be in agreement. No reason for he and I to thrash it out.

I said, "thrash it out together"....not "thrash it out against each other."

[RaceRunner]

Now this is where it's gonna get dicey. Since 1903 the Church-be it COG,COGOP or TCOG-has "implied"(though not officially) that they were the "one fold". I never bought into that. For several reasons too. Number one, I find no scripture to support the claim while finding several that "shoot it down".((Don't ask me book,chapter and verse) One says "other sheep which are not of this fold are mine also".One says at the rapture that "those who are dead in Christ shall rise up followed by the saints who are alive".

Just supplying the scriptures you requested with no comment:

Joh 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

1Th 4:16-18 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Does that mean that any who followed Christ prior to 1903 are doomed to Hell?
No

Does that mean that Christians such as Billy Graham and Mother Theresa ain't gonna make it?
No.

Does that mean that only those COGs prior to 1943 will or won't make it?
That would be '23. And no.

Does it mean that those in COGOP prior to 1993 are doomed...
No

Does it mean that all those who are "earnestly searching" in independent churches will be cast aside?
No

Christ said that he would "draw all men unto him". He called it "His church".
There are many more scriptures regarding that...but I'll leave that to anyone who wants to debate it in the doctrinal section.

My answers are in blue.

...

[Shepherd]

Now this is where it's gonna get dicey. Since 1903 the Church-be it COG,COGOP or TCOG-has "implied"(though not officially) that they were the "one fold". I never bought into that. For several reasons too. Number one, I find no scripture to support the claim while finding several that "shoot it down".(Don't ask me book,chapter and verse)One says "other sheep which are not of this fold are mine also".One says at the rapture that "those who are dead in Christ shall rise up followed by the saints who are alive".Does that mean that any who followed Christ prior to 1903 are doomed to Hell? Does that mean that Christians such as Billy Graham and Mother Theresa ain't gonna make it? Does that mean that only those COGs prior to 1943 will or won't make it? Does it mean that those in COGOP prior to 1993 are doomed or will they make it? Does it mean that all those who are "earnestly searching" in independent churches will be cast aside? Christ said that he would "draw all men unto him". He called it "His church". I take that to mean that if you follow the teachings of the BIBLE(not a denomination) and serve the Lord you have a pretty good chance of making it. The Pharisees and Sadduces followed their own "doctrine" and look where it got them. Yeah I know what my parents believed-first in COGOP and then in TCOG- and I respected them for their beliefs. But like I've said several times on J2, I didn't always agree with their beliefs.

Your parents would never have been a part of the COGOP or TCOG if either of those organizations had believed what you have implied here. Your dad believed that there were scattered sheep who were not yet in one fold (i.e., Christians who were not in the Church). He believed that tens of thousands in COGOP, not only prior to 1993 but also since then, will make it. If Billy Graham or Mother Teresa make it, it will not be because of their good works. They will be judged by God on the same basis as anyone else. However, there are great men and women of God who are not in TCOG. If TCOG believed what you have implied, I would turn in my license immediately and walk away. I have been an overseer in TCOG since 1993 and have never heard of one of our ministers preach that all Christians are in TCOG. I am not on the attack here. I am in a defensive mode. Disagree with us if you will, but please do not misrepresent us. If a man is a Baptist, he should be a Baptist because he believes the Baptists teach closer to the Bible than anything he has found. That's the reason that I am in TCOG and I would hope that's the reason that others on the board are where they are. However, with one God, one Spirit, one Word, surely God wants Christians to have a higher dimension of unity than what we see in the denominational system. I celebrate whatever beliefs I have with common with those in various denominations, but I pray that the time will come when we will have much more in common. And while I am venting, let me say this, that all biblical doctrine is important. The Great Commission has to do with more than just leading people to initial faith in Christ and baptizing them. It also includes teaching to observe all things which Jesus commanded. I would hope that we agree that antinomianism and licentiousness are just as wrong as extreme legalism.

[Full Quiver]

And while I am venting, let me say this, that all biblical doctrine is important. The Great Commission has to do with more than just leading people to initial faith in Christ and baptizing them. It also includes teaching to observe all things which Jesus commanded.

Which is to love God with your entire being and love everyone else as yourself. So easy that a fool need not err.

[Shepherd]

And while I am venting, let me say this, that all biblical doctrine is important. The Great Commission has to do with more than just leading people to initial faith in Christ and baptizing them. It also includes teaching to observe all things which Jesus commanded.

Which is to love God with your entire being and love everyone else as yourself. So easy that a fool need not err.

15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. 16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. 17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.
1 John 2:15-17 (KJV)

11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, 12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
Titus 2:11-12 (KJV)

[ImaPK]

Shepherd said

Your parents would never have been a part of the COGOP or TCOG if either of those organizations had believed what you have implied here. Your dad believed that there were scattered sheep who were not yet in one fold (i.e., Christians who were not in the Church).

Go back and read the word I put in quotations..."IMPLIED". And I even said it was NEVER "official". You're right, my parents never preached nor believed that, it was "IMPLIED" by the attitude the majority of the membership had. "We are holier then all the others." In reality they were struggling to reach a "state of perfection" that is unattainable here on Earth. I saw hypocrisy in COGOP growing up and I see some of the same things in TCOG today. Christ said his bride will be pure and to me that means that TRUE CHRISTIANS will be his Church. Those that struggle for that "state of perfection", not those who seek power and authority.

[Pastor Gary]

...with one God, one Spirit, one Word, surely God wants Christians to have a higher dimension of unity than what we see in the denominational system.

What WHO sees is the denominational system? Shepherd, we can't even enjoy close fellowship here on Jude2 among those who are XCOGX people, because we always end up dividing over doctrines that are not essential to salvation.

I enjoy a LOT of fellowship and unity within the "denominational system." My dear friend who pastors the nearby Foursquare Church has made his huge facility available to me for events. Another friend, who pastors the nearby Presbyterian Church has enabled me to attend school -- his church provides generous scholarship funds for me and for one of our other leaders. A United Methodist Pastor friend and I encourage one another and share presentation resources. I traveled to the Philippines with 29 pastors, from 12 denominations, as we shared meals, ministry and mission; my roommate on that trip was an incredibly wonderful Southern Baptist friend. There was a sweet Spirit among us as we prayed together, worshipped together, cried together, laughed together and ministered to the poorest-of-the-poor.

We don't see precisely eye-to-eye on all matters of doctrine or praxis... but neither do you and I.

We share our building with 4 other congregations... one Seventh Day Adventist congregation, an independent Korean congregation that is sort of Presby-costal, and two Anglican congregations. Vastly different in doctrinal details, but all passionate about their faith in Jesus, love for this community and working together. Our aging, galvanized water lines have sprung leaks and been patched a few times too many, so at 8:00 AM tomorrow a crew of volunteers from the Anglican church will be here with equipment and supplies to lay new water feed lines... because they want to! I am performing the wedding ceremony for the son of the Korean Church Pastor in 3 weeks.

You are missing so much of what God is doing in us, and with us and through us in HIS CHURCH, which is so much bigger, so much stronger and so much more powerful and glorious than you have ever imagined.

[Russell Roberts]

Pastor Gary said...

You are missing so much of what God is doing in us, and with us and through us in HIS CHURCH, which is so much bigger, so much stronger and so much more powerful and glorious than you have ever imagined.

Amen and Amen. This is the ecumenical thrust of Wright's teaching on the doctrine of justification. The Apostles saw faith in Christ as the 'sign' that the Holy Spirit had worked within someone's heart to bring about new creation. Hence, faith in Christ serves to allow us to identify who our brothers and sisters are. Allegience to Jesus the Messiah serves much the same way as circumcision, Sabbath observance, and food laws did in the O.T. for the Jews. It allows us to determine who is who. Who belongs to God's family? Those who have faith in Jesus Christ, that's who.

Excellent comment Pastor Gary.

[paul]

...with one God, one Spirit, one Word, surely God wants Christians to have a higher dimension of unity than what we see in the denominational system.

What WHO sees is the denominational system? Shepherd, we can't even enjoy close fellowship here on Jude2 among those who are XCOGX people, because we always end up dividing over doctrines that are not essential to salvation.

I enjoy a LOT of fellowship and unity within the "denominational system." My dear friend who pastors the nearby Foursquare Church has made his huge facility available to me for events. Another friend, who pastors the nearby Presbyterian Church has enabled me to attend school -- his church provides generous scholarship funds for me and for one of our other leaders. A United Methodist Pastor friend and I encourage one another and share presentation resources. I traveled to the Philippines with 29 pastors, from 12 denominations, as we shared meals, ministry and mission; my roommate on that trip was an incredibly wonderful Southern Baptist friend. There was a sweet Spirit among us as we prayed together, worshipped together, cried together, laughed together and ministered to the poorest-of-the-poor.

We don't see precisely eye-to-eye on all matters of doctrine or praxis... but neither do you and I.

We share our building with 4 other congregations... one Seventh Day Adventist congregation, an independent Korean congregation that is sort of Presby-costal, and two Anglican congregations. Vastly different in doctrinal details, but all passionate about their faith in Jesus, love for this community and working together. Our aging, galvanized water lines have sprung leaks and been patched a few times too many, so at 8:00 AM tomorrow a crew of volunteers from the Anglican church will be here with equipment and supplies to lay new water feed lines... because they want to! I am performing the wedding ceremony for the son of the Korean Church Pastor in 3 weeks.

You are missing so much of what God is doing in us, and with us and through us in HIS CHURCH, which is so much bigger, so much stronger and so much more powerful and glorious than you have ever imagined.

[Pastorbps]

Amen and Amen. This is the ecumenical thrust of Wright's teaching on the doctrine of justification. The Apostles saw faith in Christ as the 'sign' that the Holy Spirit had worked within someone's heart to bring about new creation. Hence, faith in Christ serves to allow us to identify who our brothers and sisters are. Allegience to Jesus the Messiah serves much the same way as circumcision, Sabbath observance, and food laws did in the O.T. for the Jews. It allows us to determine who is who. Who belongs to God's family? Those who have faith in Jesus Christ, that's who.

How do you know who has faith in Christ?

[paul]

Amen and Amen. This is the ecumenical thrust of Wright's teaching on the doctrine of justification. The Apostles saw faith in Christ as the 'sign' that the Holy Spirit had worked within someone's heart to bring about new creation. Hence, faith in Christ serves to allow us to identify who our brothers and sisters are. Allegience to Jesus the Messiah serves much the same way as circumcision, Sabbath observance, and food laws did in the O.T. for the Jews. It allows us to determine who is who. Who belongs to God's family? Those who have faith in Jesus Christ, that's who.

How do you know who has faith in Christ?

You know them by the fruit that they bear.

[Pastorbps]

You know them by the fruit that they bear.

What fruit?

[Shepherd]

I present this thread as evidence of the division which exists in the denominational system. I want to protect members of TCOG from the kind of attacks which are in this thread. This thread also makes it clear that some of the posters would want to protect their members from TCOG. If I plea for more unity than that, I will be challenged. Let's celebrate what we have in common and love one another more so than this thread evidences in spite of our differences. On the other hand, I think we should all have a line drawn in the sand as to degrees of fellowship. What fellowship has light with darkness? That's Bible, but we can still love God and our neighbor and be faithful to that principle. My ministerial training comes from at least 6 different denominations. My last year as a full-time pastor, I was treasurer for one ministerial association and vice-president of another. In a few days I will be a guest speaker in the International Assembly of a denomination of which I am not a member. I met Pastor Gary a few years ago at a COGOP Assembly. Most (including Pastor Gary) showed me a warm welcome; others persecuted me for being there. A few in TCOG have that spirit. There are some good people in the Word of Faith movement. You may say that they would be welcome on this board. Do you really think that they would feel welcome? In John 17 Jesus was praying for even greater unity than that which exists in the denominational system.

[paul]

You know them by the fruit that they bear.

What fruit?

Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.