Rethinking, Revisiting, Relearning

[Pastorbps]

Rom 13:9-10
9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

As you have said, Love is an evidence of one's faith. Love doesn't work ill to one's neighbour nor does it disregard the commandments of God therefore someone who works ill toward their neighbour and rejects God's commandments is not a child of God because that means they aren't walking in love.

How about this one?
1 John 3:7-9
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Too many seem to focus on what people do as evidence of their salvation but John seems to imply it isn't just the positive a person does which gives evidence to true faith but it is also their rejection of the negatives or of sin which gives evidence as well.

[Billy n NC]

Its Like I have said..

What Difference Will It Make?

To Be Right and Correct on Doctrinal Issues? WDWIM?

To Be The One True Bride of Christ? A Better Seat at the marriage supper? WDWIM?

If the Thief on the Cross made it in? WDWIM?

[Pastorbps]

Its Like I have said..
What Difference Will It Make?
To Be Right and Correct on Doctrinal Issues? WDWIM?

I must be misunderstanding you. To be right about doctrinal issues doesn't matter?

[paul]

Rom 13:9-10
9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

As you have said, Love is an evidence of one's faith. Love doesn't work ill to one's neighbour nor does it disregard the commandments of God therefore someone who works ill toward their neighbour and rejects God's commandments is not a child of God because that means they aren't walking in love.

How about this one?
1 John 3:7-9
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Too many seem to focus on what people do as evidence of their salvation but John seems to imply it isn't just the positive a person does which gives evidence to true faith but it is also their rejection of the negatives or of sin which gives evidence as well.

The goal of individual conversion is for us to bear the fruit of the Spirit, that is, to be transformed into God's own likeness, the likeness of Christ.

For those in legalism to goal is to miss hell. Therefore the long list of laws. True conversion is to be conformed to the likeness of Christ, which are noted in the fruit of the Spirit.

When we receive Christ at conversion, we have been invaded by God himself, in the person of the Spirit, whose goal is to infect us thoroughly with God's own likeness. Paul's phrase for this infection is the Fruit of the Spirit. With the coming of the Spirit into our lives, with the renewing of our minds, we have a heavenly appetite for this fruit.

laws, rules, condemnation, none of those will ever increase that appetite, only a hunger for more of the Spirit of God.

[Pastorbps]

Paul
I'm not arguing the working of the Holy Spirit to bring us to the image of Christ. I actually think you said that very well. I'm not saying giving a person a list of commandments will make them obedient to those commandments. I'm saying a person who has the Holy Spirit in their heart will live by those commandments and if they refuse, it is because the Holy Spirit is not in their heart. The obedience to God's commandments doesn't save a person but a saved person will live by God's commandments. Therefore, a person's unwillingness to live by the commandments of God can be used as evidence in determining the validity of their faith.

[Dr. Ron]

Pastorbps,

I am not sure I have a clue who you are, and I have no axe to grind with you...but you really might want to check your theology concerning the idea that you have proposed on this thread.

If you truly believe that one's total and absolute obedience to the "rules" or however you said it, determines your spiritual status, then you are seriously in error.

I agree with Paul. The essence of the HS's work in our lives is to "make us conform to the image" of Christ. Certainly that is His work. He is to lead us and guide us into all truth....

But to assert that we are somehow not christian if we don't follow all the rules is to have the mindset that any infraction of those rules causes us to "backslide"....and lose our salvation.

Would it come as a surprise to you if I told you that you never "disappoint" God. He never looks down and says..." oh me, I never thought in a million years Ron would do such a thing.....He has broken my heart...and I am throwing him away".....nope He already knows what we are going to do ....and loves us anyway....Thank God.

Now does that give us a free pass to commit any sin we feel inclined to? NO not in the least....but it does give us the joy of knowing that when we fall down he picks us up and weaves that incident into our lives and makes us a much better person that we were.....

Excuse me I have to go swim now with some women.....

[Shepherd]

Paul
I'm not arguing the working of the Holy Spirit to bring us to the image of Christ. I actually think you said that very well. I'm not saying giving a person a list of commandments will make them obedient to those commandments. I'm saying a person who has the Holy Spirit in their heart will live by those commandments and if they refuse, it is because the Holy Spirit is not in their heart. The obedience to God's commandments doesn't save a person but a saved person will live by God's commandments. Therefore, a person's unwillingness to live by the commandments of God can be used as evidence in determining the validity of their faith.

Amen!

[paul]

Paul
I'm not arguing the working of the Holy Spirit to bring us to the image of Christ. I actually think you said that very well. I'm not saying giving a person a list of commandments will make them obedient to those commandments. I'm saying a person who has the Holy Spirit in their heart will live by those commandments and if they refuse, it is because the Holy Spirit is not in their heart. The obedience to God's commandments doesn't save a person but a saved person will live by God's commandments. Therefore, a person's unwillingness to live by the commandments of God can be used as evidence in determining the validity of their faith.

I think were we may differ some is the road to that obedience of the commands.

Galatians 5:15 and Rom 7:13-25 I know from my early days, I was simply told that if I was truly sanctified this would no longer be a problem.

I believe that we all would agree that paul was not only sanctified but also full of the Holy Spirit, he spoke in tongues more than they all did. Although I thing that there is a heap more to being filled with the Spirit than tongues.

These scriptures are not an excuse, but rather a real life issue. For me, the more I can become like Christ, by hungering after the likeness of Christ, the more I begin to walk in the fullness of Christ and the more I am able to fulfill his commands.

so back to PG response. When I see the likeness of Christ ( fruit of the Spirit) in believers, even if they arn't in agreement with some of my doctrinal convictions, I realise that we are all on a journey, Paul states it very well, until we all come to the unity of faith, unto the full measure and stature of Christ. Not the full measure of any one denominational doctrine, or by-laws, or government...but the full measure of Christ, which is demonstrated by the Fruit of the Spirit.

[Dr. Ron]

Yeah....what Paul said.....Amen....

[ImaPK]

I'm sitting here laughing. Shepherd I have never been a member of any church and I still can see the "attitudes" running through denominations.

On the other hand, I think we should all have a line drawn in the sand as to degrees of fellowship. What fellowship has light with darkness?

THAT is the attitude I am talking about. SERVING GOD is what is going to get you to Heaven. NOT what DENOMINATION you belong to. I've told this story before so bear with me. I worked at Hardwick Stove in Cleveland Tennessee for 4 years in the Quality Control Department. One of the guys I worked with was a PK like myself only he was Baptist. He started EVERY morning with a silent prayer for a good day. At morning break he read his Bible. At lunch he blessed his food and read his Bible. At afternoon break he read his Bible. The guy didn't smoke. He didn't drink. The strongest thing I ever heard him say was "Aw crap". Every Friday he would invite us to church on Sunday. Did he make a show of all of this? NO! This guy was so quiet and humble that you hardly knew he was around. But you know what? Everyone at the plant RESPECTED his WITNESS, be they COG, COGOP, Methodist or any other denomination. Did this guy agree with COGOP doctrine(pre 1993) Some of it yes, some of it no. Did he put down those of other religions? No, he prayed for AND WITH THEM. There were a couple of COGOPers who worked there in other parts of the plant that I KNOW asked him to remember them in prayer. To me he was a better example of a CHRISTIAN then some of those I knew in COGOP(at that time) and some of those I know in TCOG. Believe me when I say this, but since 1961(when my parents joined COGOP)there have been too many times that I have heard it said "THIS(COG, COGOP, TCOG) is the LORD'S CHURCH" Of course I'm just the "resident sinner" here on J2 so what I say don't amount to a hill of beans to the "holier then thou's". But you know what, I don't draw a line in the sand on who I fellowship with. I like the Pharisees AND the Christians.

[scooter]

I'm sitting here laughing. Shepherd I have never been a member of any church and I still can see the "attitudes" running through denominations.

On the other hand, I think we should all have a line drawn in the sand as to degrees of fellowship. What fellowship has light with darkness?

THAT is the attitude I am talking about. SERVING GOD is what is going to get you to Heaven. NOT what DENOMINATION you belong to. I've told this story before so bear with me. I worked at Hardwick Stove in Cleveland Tennessee for 4 years in the Quality Control Department. One of the guys I worked with was a PK like myself only he was Baptist. He started EVERY morning with a silent prayer for a good day. At morning break he read his Bible. At lunch he blessed his food and read his Bible. At afternoon break he read his Bible. The guy didn't smoke. He didn't drink. The strongest thing I ever heard him say was "Aw crap". Every Friday he would invite us to church on Sunday. Did he make a show of all of this? NO! This guy was so quiet and humble that you hardly knew he was around. But you know what? Everyone at the plant RESPECTED his WITNESS, be they COG, COGOP, Methodist or any other denomination. Did this guy agree with COGOP doctrine(pre 1993) Some of it yes, some of it no. Did he put down those of other religions? No, he prayed for AND WITH THEM. There were a couple of COGOPers who worked there in other parts of the plant that I KNOW asked him to remember them in prayer. To me he was a better example of a CHRISTIAN then some of those I knew in COGOP(at that time) and some of those I know in TCOG. Believe me when I say this, but since 1961(when my parents joined COGOP)there have been too many times that I have heard it said "THIS(COG, COGOP, TCOG) is the LORD'S CHURCH" Of course I'm just the "resident sinner" here on J2 so what I say don't amount to a hill of beans to the "holier then thou's". But you know what, I don't draw a line in the sand on who I fellowship with. I like the Pharisees AND the Christians.

Response: You are so right. I love the revisionist approach to what the CoGop was and what the TCog is.

[Shepherd]

I know you believe you understand what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.

[Shepherd]

2Co 6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?
15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?
16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,
18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

Eph 5:3 ¶ But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;
4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.
5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them.
8 For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:
9 (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth;)
10 Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord.
11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.
12 For it is a shame even to speak of those things which are done of them in secret.

1Jo 1:3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.
4 And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full.
5 ¶ This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

[Billy n NC]

Its Like I have said..
What Difference Will It Make?
To Be Right and Correct on Doctrinal Issues? WDWIM?

I must be misunderstanding you. To be right about doctrinal issues doesn't matter?

I guess I need to clarify a bit.
Doctrinal Issues that have more to do with

Tradition, Regional or reading between the lines and making
it the 11th commandment than it does Biblical Doctrine.

Ie. Taking the scripture about defiling the body to support biblical foundations for not smoking, tattoos, drinking and a host of others. Thats what I am talking about WDWIM?

On a lighter note.

Want to know why we have church at 10:00 am on Sunday?

Because farmers could get there cows milked and get dressed for church in time and be back home for the evening milking.

[Russell Roberts]

My commandment is this...that you LOVE one another.