This is bound to draw fire

Postby **Pastor Gary** » September 1st, 2009, 4:58 pm

Should American Evangelical Christians support modern-day Israel, a nation of largely secular ethnic Jews, or the Palestinians, mostly brothers and sisters in Christ? It may not be as clear-cut as you think...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YYWlB64upSc&e

free · Postby **free** » September 1st, 2009, 5:16 pm

Here's how John Hagee would respond to you:

http://www.jhm.org/ME2/Sites/dirmod.asp?sid=&type=gen&mod=Core+Pages&gid=27AAA6C53C0949FC85078AEDE43C4AA0&SiteID=8112722C039B4E508F0AB8552B898895

Postby **Pastor Gary** » September 1st, 2009, 5:20 pm

You posted so quickly you didn't have time to watch the long video, which basically takes Hagee to task. :lol:

pastorables · Postby **pastorables** » September 1st, 2009, 5:37 pm

I watched the video. What is the question?

Postby **Pastor Gary** » September 1st, 2009, 5:39 pm

pastorables wrote:I watched the video. What is the question?

Should American Evangelical Christians support modern-day Israel, a nation of largely secular ethnic Jews, or the Palestinians, mostly brothers and sisters in Christ?

pastorables · Postby **pastorables** » September 1st, 2009, 5:42 pm

Pastor Gary wrote:[or the Palestinians, mostly brothers and sisters in Christ?

First of all, where do you get your information that Palestinians are mostly Christians? Likewise, there are Christian Israelis, but I am not sure that we have actual percentages. Wikipedia suggests that 1.1 % of Palestinians are Christian and that 2.2% of Israelis are as well. I'm not sure that these numbers are correct. I'm just trying to get my mind around your question.

pa

Postby **Pastor Gary** » September 1st, 2009, 5:59 pm

pastorables wrote:
Pastor Gary wrote:[or the Palestinians, mostly brothers and sisters in Christ?

First of all, where do you get your information that Palestinians are mostly Christians? Likewise, there are Christian Israelis, but I am not sure that we have actual percentages. Wikipedia suggests that 1.1 % of Palestinians are Christian and that 2.2% of Israelis are as well. I'm not sure that these numbers are correct. I'm just trying to get my mind around your question.

pa

My information comes from people I know who work as missionaries among the Palestinians, and from some Messianic Jews who moved to Israel and found more than a few surprises.

pastorables · Postby **pastorables** » September 1st, 2009, 6:11 pm

Pastor Gary wrote:
My information comes from people I know who work as missionaries among the Palestinians, and from some Messianic Jews who moved to Israel and found more than a few surprises.

From my current understanding of Eschatology (and I do not support the traditional Darby version), I have no problem with Christian Zionism --- although I'm not an activist. Israel indeed plays a huge part in the end times; and one would be foolish to dismiss God's hand upon them, especially throughout this most recent generation.

pa

Russell Roberts · Postby **Russell Roberts** » September 2nd, 2009, 12:05 am

This video shows how most Christians in the United States have bought into the ethnic boast of the Jews tha Paul so vehemenently opposed in Romans. Just incredible.

Russell Roberts · Postby **Russell Roberts** » September 2nd, 2009, 1:20 am

Wow. What an incredible video. It offers an excellent summary on the origins of modern day Zionism. It was interesting to learn that Joe Lieberman alluded to Hagee as a new kind of Moses. I wrote a blogpost on this very thing.

Here is a link.

http://russellaroberts.blogspot.com/200 ... xodus.html

Russell Roberts · Postby **Russell Roberts** » September 2nd, 2009, 2:09 am

I have a solution to the whole problem. Let's force Israel to demolish their settlements and withdraw to pre-1967 borders, stopping along the way to apologize to every Palestinian Christian along the way for their evil treatment of them. Then, we could give Jerusalem to the Palestinians. Sound good?

Full Quiver · Postby **Full Quiver** » September 2nd, 2009, 2:26 am

My support for Israel is based on that they want peace, they are a democratic nation in the midst of totalitarian nations, and I support the underdogs in most cases. Their neighbors would align against them to totally do away with them if not for our support.

So in essence my support has nothing to do with faith, belief, religion, or doctrine. Iraq is mostly Muslim BUT IF they hold to democratic principles I will support them.

Russell Roberts · Postby **Russell Roberts** » September 2nd, 2009, 2:31 am

FQ, you mean like Saudi Arabia?

JohnDB · Postby **JohnDB** » September 2nd, 2009, 2:40 am

I find this to be true of many people.

They really don't know what and why they believe what they believe.
And out of the few that do have major errors in their logic and reasoning in what they believe.

Even fewer still have anywhere near what is known to be real logic and a sound reason for what they believe.

The "large Majority" of people...only half listen and because of the manner in which they were told something (usually someone charismatic or someone that they believe to be a "good man") they do believe and their faith is based upon the integrity of a man...

Which is kinda shakey ground IMHO. So many preachers fall these days...none are perfect. Some have fallen with resounding crashes too...the wife swapping incidents with the deacons/elders comes to mind.

We all pretty much know (but few will admit) that it doesn't take a Bible Scholar to be a preacher...and most aren't. They have a different job...one of leading. Pride though usually doesn't allow for someone else to be the "bible scholar" of a church and another to be the leader.

I do believe though that this is a day in which this separation must come or else we are going to pay an even higher price than what we already have.

dolfan · Postby **dolfan** » September 2nd, 2009, 3:36 am

I do not personally believe that Israel now has a special or particular role, as opposed to other nations, in God's ultimate actions toward us. At the same time, I do favor Israel over its neighbors because of its democratic government and relatively free society. What they do versus what the Muslim governed nations do is way closer to what I think is a preferable order of society and government.

I do not condone or approve of their treatment of the Palestinians. I also do not approve of or condone their treatment by the Palestinians. It is an impasse, and nothing Israel does is ever going to be good enough. Maybe if more Jews were Christians, those particular Jews would not be inclined to build new settlements in disputed areas because they'd know that their actions would only foment more controversy and hatred, and that's something Christians have a duty to avoid on the whole. If Christians want to help Jews and Palestinians, evangelize. That sounds nuts --- tell the good news to the people from whom it came. But that's where it came from, from right under their feet.

I think, politically speaking, the Palestinian claims and demands are unrealistic, but I'm resigned to the fact that they're resigned to the conflict and want it for its own sake. Not that there aren't exceptions, not that there aren't real and innocent victims among them, perhaps many.

I'd add this, though: If Paul's admonition to subject ourselves to authorities is not exhaustive, then it leaves no choice as I see it but for the Palestinians to capitulate to the Israeli demands. It is clear that the Palestinians have no "authority" other than rogue bands of thugs, a tribal kind of society almost. That is no authority, practically, and Israel's is the dominant one. So, it is THE authority, and if Paul's admonition does not limit government's true authority to simply punishing evil works and praising good ones, then every Palestinian Christian has a God-given duty to obey the Israeli authorities with a smile. I know I'm working on mine for Obamacare, now.

Jude 2