Luke 18

[dolfan]

I suppose I ought to be more informed about this and why it matters, but I want to respond to something Oletimer said.

The fact is that Jesus is no longer Man, but now sits as the Son of God, the third part of the Trinity

I think I disagree with that. And, I may be wrong, but I think I disagree. When Jesus resurrected, glorified, and ascended, He did so as a resurrected human. His human body was actually resurrected and glorified. It -- that human thing on Him -- ascended. Of that, it was stated to the disciples who eyewitnessed it that, "This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in just the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven." (Acts 1:11). Paul couldn't have been clearer, seems to me, in 1 Corinthians that in all of His ministry, His human-ness never vanished or vanishes.

First, Paul said, Jesus was buried and raised. (v. 4). If He was buried a human and was raised from the dead, He was raised as a man from the dead or He wasn't raised at all. Paul stated that Jesus "appeared" after His resurrection, and summarized those appearances, including Jesus' appearance to Paul himself. (vss. 5-8). One gospel shares how Thomas actually physically touched Jesus' physical hand and where Jesus told him to poke Him in the side where the spear had been thrust into Him on the cross. Paul said if Christ wasn't raised, then faith is in vain (v. 14).

So, when He was raised, He was a raised human being. When He ascended, He was an ascending human being. When He returns, He will return a ........? If it is anything other than a human being, I'd really like to know.

You also said that Jesus is now "total God" and "Jesus is no longer Man, but now sits as the Son of God, the third part of the Trinity". I don't disagree that He was and is fully God. In him dwelt all of the fullness of the Godhead bodily, we're taught in Scripture. But, I don't get where you arrive at a point, from Scripture, that He is no longer man. The angels told the disciples that when He returns, He'll return as He ascended, and He ascended as a resurrected man. You believe that He'll reign for 1,000 years in Jerusalem (I assume, maybe wrongfully -- tell me if I'm wrong on that) and I think you believe He'll be a human being when He does that.

In any event, 1 Corinthians 15 has more to say on it:

20But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep. 21For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. 23But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming...."

and in vss. 35-38,

"... with what kind of body do they come?"

36 .... That which you sow does not come to life unless it dies; 37and that which you sow, you do not sow the body which is to be, but a bare grain, perhaps of wheat or of something else. 38But God gives it a body just as He wished, and to each of the seeds a body of its own."

We have actual, real-life descriptions of the body that Jesus had when He resurrected. Whatever else the Bible does or does not say about that body, it does say this much: it was a body. A physical, real, tangible body. A human one. I don't think, seriously, that a case can be made that Jesus puts on and disrobes from a human body as it suits Him. He is who He is. At His exaltation, as Paul describes that in Philippians 2, there's no mention of Jesus not being the person He was on Earth. Paul doesn't say that Jesus became something else than He had been on Earth, but that He was exalted and given a name above all names.

Help me find what it is you mean when you say Jesus is no longer a man. Sounds modalistic to me.

[Russell Roberts]

Good luck with that one Dolfan.

[oletimer]

Dolfan

"This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in just the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven." (Acts 1:11).

Ac 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

How was it that they saw Him go up? “he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.”

Mt 26:64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Here after shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

Here in Mathew 26:64 Jesus himself says that He would come in the clouds. Nether place says any thing about body.


Ac 1:9 And when he had said these things, as they were looking, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
Ac 1:10 And while they were looking stedfastly into heaven as he went, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
Ac 1:11 who also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye looking into heaven? this Jesus, who was received up from you into heaven shall so come in like manner as ye beheld him going into heaven.

When Jesus resurrected, glorified, and ascended, He did so as a resurrected human. His human body was actually resurrected and glorified. It -- that human thing on Him -- ascended

1Co 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
1Co 15:43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
1Co 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

But, I don't get where you arrive at a point, from Scripture, that He is no longer man. The angels told the disciples that when He returns, He'll return as He ascended, and He ascended as a resurrected man.

Joh 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.


Joh 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
Joh 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

As to what form that Jesus is I don’t know other then it want resemble the flesh, for He is in His glorified body that He was before coming as man. The sole purpose of Him being man in the first place was for the redemption of man. I don’t want to try to put Christ in a box and say He can’t do this or that or even be that way or the other. From the scriptural point of view, in John 19:30 He said “it is finish”, meaning His redemptive works.

appearance to Paul himself. (vss. 5- . One gospel shares how Thomas actually physically touched Jesus' physical hand and where Jesus told him to poke Him in the side where the spear had been thrust into Him on the cross. Paul said if Christ wasn't raised, then faith is in vain (v. 14).

Moses and Elijah appeared before Peter, James, and John his brother. Where they fleshly or were they of Spiritual bodies? I think of the Spiritual or the heavenly.

Mt 17:1 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,
Mt 17:2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.
Mt 17:3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him. Mt 17:4 Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.
Mt 17:5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.


No body disputes that Christ wasn’t raised from the grave, but I have a problem with Him being fleshly. I know that Thomas touched Him and for that reason of doubt God made it possible.

Joh 20:26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.
Joh 20:27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.

In verse twenty-six, something happen that could not have happen if He has been flesh, all of a sudden He appeared in their mist. Again not wanting to try and put Him in a box, being the “Son of God” at this point, He could do what God can do.

1Co 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

1Co 15:35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
1Co 15:36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
1Co 15:37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:


We all know that NO seed that is planted is ever raised the same body, but comes up a new body, if you may a different body total different from the old body. The flesh and earthly type are representative of sin, not going to happen as far as the heavenly travel.

Philippians 2, there's no mention of Jesus not being the person He was on Earth. Paul doesn't say that Jesus became something else than He had been on Earth, but that He was exalted and given a name above all names.

Haven reread Philippians 2 I don’t see any thing that support what you say.

To me to say that Christ was in heaven in an earthly body would be like belittling Christ, heaven, and God. The bible teaches that heaven is a glorious place and a sacred place, also a Holy place. Don’t see nothing “earthly” there.

[dolfan]

MMMM....Ok.

[Poimen]

Oletimer, friend, I think you have misunderstood the meaning of "glorified" as it relates to the resurrection of the human body.

We know that God is a spirit. Hence we know that the pre-incarnate Christ (lit. pre-body dwelling Christ) was/is likewise spirit. Christ, however, in the incarnation became a man -- forever.

Nevertheless, he always has been and forever remains divine, while now at the same time being human. He became flesh. Though he is forevermore human, he is not forever corruptible or mortal. Nor shall we be, in the resurrection.

Our flesh, in Adam, became corruptible, vile, susceptible to pain, illness, and death. Our flesh, in Christ, is redeemed, raised victorious over those things -- changed -- and thus becomes (in the resurrection) immortal, glorified, and eternal, the same way Jesus' body did. But such is still the body -- the physical dwelling our spirits inhabit.

The difference between the glorified body and the vile body is not the absence of the body, nor is it an exchange of bodies, but rather this same body CHANGED -- altered if you will.

It is simply the state of the body that changes -- not the body itself. What once was, even now is corruptible, mortal, fallen will be incorruptible, immortal, raised eternal. BUT, it still is the body, the same one you have now. So too with Christ.


This is vital !!!

This is the essence of, indeed the purpose for, the resurrection. If Christ did not rise a human, then he did not redeem humanity.

If Christ did not bodily rise and ascend into heaven then he did not conquer death, and we are all yet in our sins.

If Christ is not now and evermore truly human (while at the same time still truly God) then we have no hope of immortality, no eternal life, and any hope we have in Christ is in this life only.

If that be so then we are indeed of all men most miserable.

If Christ be not raised, raised a man; a perfected, glorified, eternally existing man then the gospel is worthless, indeed a lie.

1 Corinthians 15:21
For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

[RamboPreacher]

Poimen; just in case you were wondering about my opinion on this issue. I agree with your post.

[oletimer]

Poimen, friend I have to respectively disagree with you on most of these points that you have made. First just to start in 1 Cor 15:50 says;

1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

Even before the cross Jesus was transfigured with Moses and Elijah. This should shead light on the fact that in the next life that we will all be changed with "A new body".

Mt 17:2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.

Joh 20:26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.

Flesh and blood doesn't go thru walls with there is a hole of some kind in it.

Paul wrote in the fifth chapter of 2 Cor. that;

2Co 5:6
Therefore we are always confident, knowing that,

whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

Paul wrote that they had known Christ in the flesh, the apostles was with Him daily while He was here on earth and knew Him in the flesh, but thing was different.


2Co 5:16
¶ Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.
What about the two on the road to Emmaus when they had reached Emmaus they had him to tay with them that night. When they sat to eat and "he took bread, and blessed it, and brake, and gave to them.
Lu 24:31
And their eyes were opened, and they knew him; and he vanished out of their sight."

Lu 24:30
And it came to pass, as he sat at meat with them, he took bread, and blessed it, and brake, and gave to them.
Lu 24:31
And their eyes were opened, and they knew him; and he vanished out of their sight.

The flesssh and blood don't and can't do this. Does this weaken that Ideal that by Him being raised Spiritual Mna and I thought that the flesh and Spirit became life for all man kind. There is life in the Spirit, not in the flesh. Also what would all those that die and their body no longer exise. This not to say that we want be know for what we look like in the flesh, but not as flesh.

1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

BTW maybe the problem with many is that they have not crucified the flesh.

[Poimen]

I still think it is more or less matter of mis-communication and/or misunderstanding one another. Knowing you, I know that you do not mean what it appears you are implying -- that Christ did not bodily rise from the dead and bodily ascend into heaven.

I think it can be a difficult thing to understand Paul sometimes (even Peter said as much, under divine inspiration no less). However, in the interest of study, and maybe being corrected myself, I think the context for Paul's statements helps to define or clarify what he intended us to understand about the phrase "flesh and blood".

When Paul speaks of "flesh and blood" he speaks of the body in it's present corruptible state. When Paul speaks of the changed body, the spiritual body as he calls it, he speak of the body in it's incorruptible state. BUT, it is the same body, only changed from mortal to immortal, corruptible to incorruptible. At least that is how I understand Paul here.

For clarification...

Do you agree that Jesus came out of the grave in the same body he went into it with?

Do you agree that Jesus appeared to them, walked through walls, vanished, etc. in that same resurrected body?

Do you believe Jesus will bodily return to the earth one day?

[Poimen]

Also what would all those that die and their body no longer exise. This not to say that we want be know for what we look like in the flesh, but not as flesh.

Well is anything to hard for God? He made the body from the dust, and he declared it will return to dust. Yet, through Job, he affirmed that though our bodies decay and cease to exists (as it were) yet in our flesh we shall God (Job 19:26).

That's why we are promised the resurrection. If the body was not going to be raised then there is no reason for Jesus to return for the "dead in Christ." After all, they are "present with the Lord" in spirit after being separated from the body at death.

As surely as sin looses it's power over the souls of men, so too death loses it's power over the body.

[RamboPreacher]

just a point of not as a side comment, that in physics, our "physical-ness" has more space between the "parts" than the amount of the "parts". it is possible that a human, in the flesh could walk through a door (or a wall, or whatever). especially if that person was in complete control of their own creation-ness/molecular and sub-molecular structure.

[paul]

"Poimen"

We know that God is a spirit. Hence we know that the pre-incarnate Christ (lit. pre-body dwelling Christ) was/is likewise spirit. Christ, however, in the incarnation became a man -- forever

.

So, the miracles Jesus did was not due to his divine nature as being God, but rather as a man in the flesh empowered by the Holy Spirit as we are.

Thus the works that He did shall we do and greater than these shall we do because He goes to his father.

[dolfan]

You say, Oletimer, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God. True. But, a man, in the flesh, with blood in Him, introduced it and brought it here. A man, in a human body, arose from the dead under His own power. A man, in a human body, was taken up in a cloud before the eyes of those watching, to the heavens. This much is clearly stated, explicitly, in the New Testament.

You say flesh doesn't walk through walls. Well, it came up out of a tomb after being dead for 3 days. I wouldn't think a little wall would be much of a challenge to the God of all creation. His voice made demons flee and tremble, but a wall ---- well He can't walk through a wall.

I just can't see your point. If Utah can run a spread formation and make Alabama's defense look like swiss cheese, I think Jesus can handle an adobe wall.