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[MisterTEA]

My sister asked me to clarify that the GO told them that IF Jonathan is contagious that he was not to come throught the healing line.

My sister and brother-in-law do not seem to be offended with the GO and all seems to be well and good with them and their relationship with their organization.

However, from my viewpoint as an outsider... for the GO to ban ones from a healing service (CORRECTION: I mean "healing line", not "healing service", I made it clear in my previous post that the GO would pray for the individual seperately) because of one being contagious is laughable and shows a gross lack of faith on the GO and members that seems to be panicing about this. And I posed my concerns in the context as to contrast this with the faith that the GO seemed to be demonstrating with the babies in New Mexico. Does he believe in divine healing and God's divine hand of protection or does he not?

When Jesus laid hands on the leper was he wearing a mask and latex gloves?

I do not mean to thrust myself into a church debate. I have always been a lurker, but have tried to remain silent on these boards. But, the idea of someone that is afflicted (contagious or not) being banned from a healing line is appauling to me.

Note: I agree with the notion that if you are contagious, you should stay home. But if you choose to come to a healing line, you should be welcomed.

I will remove myself from discussion, now. Simply because I have spoken my peace and I will leave it to you to debate whether or not my disgust is warranted or not.

Terry E. Ammons

[one love]

Terry I was not going to get in this one but I just realized who you are. Man I have missed ya Brother and love ya very much. I talked to your Brother in law at the assembly.

Paul you are assumming to much. I will find out exactly what was said. The grandfather is a bishop and post here so he could explain i am sure. Unless I am talking to the wrong Terry...LOL
Terry I will ask myself as well and I am praying for those that are sick.


Paul so one hand you want TCOG to follow medical advice and on the other do not?
I thought he said that OTHERS were concerned but he Would pray for him... is that correct? I dont know but I will find out.

If I had swine flu I would most likely stayed home in fear of getting others sick elderly/kids..Yes this is most likely a LACK of faith on my part, I agree.
I get the point and will not go any further because i do not know the facts but I know of a few that are there that think they have swine flu and I have heard many request for prayer.

[paul]

Terry I was not going to get in this one but I just realized who you are. Man I have missed ya Brother and love ya very much. I talked to your Brother in law at the assembly.

Paul you are assumming to much. I will find out exactly what was said. The grandfather is a bishop and post here so he could explain i am sure. Unless I am talking to the wrong Terry...LOL
Terry I will ask myself as well and I am praying for those that are sick.


Paul so one hand you want TCOG to follow medical advice and on the other do not?
I thought he said that OTHERS were concerned but he Would pray for him... is that correct? I dont know but I will find out.

If I had swine flu I would most likely stayed home in fear of getting others sick elderly/kids..Yes this is most likely a LACK of faith on my part, I agree.
I get the point and will not go any further because i do not know the facts but I know of a few that are there that think they have swine flu and I have heard many request for prayer.

MrT stated:

However, from my viewpoint as an outsider... for the GO to ban ones from a healing service because of one being contagious is laughable and shows a gross lack of faith on the GO and members that seems to be panicing about this. And I posed my concerns in the context as to contrast this with the faith that the GO seemed to be demonstrating with the babies in New Mexico. Does he believe in divine healing and God's divine hand of protection or does he not?

When Jesus laid hands on the leper was he wearing a mask and latex gloves?

one love: the above quote from MrT as an outsider is exactly what I was referring to also.

I personally have laid hands on lepers, and so many types of infections, worked in heavy areas of active TB, Full blown aids patients with open sores. If they are in the healing line, pray for them. If someone does not have the faith to know that God will protect them, then they should not be the one in the line praying.

[Blessed]

Bishop Smith did not ban anyone from the healing service. He said that if someone with swine flu should come to the healing service desiring prayer that they could be prayed for in a separate room. Bishop Smith would not hestitate to go in the separate room and pray for them. On Jude2, of course, this was a "no win" situation for Bishop Smith. Whether he respects a quarantine or ignores it, someone, not everyone, on Jude 2 will demonize him. BTW, Paul, do you have any respect for quarantines or do you ignore them?


BTW, I am on my wife's computer, she is "BLESSED" to have me as a husband?

Shepherd

[Blessed]

I have received some calls and requests that I contact some certain individuals within TCoG for their testimony concerning the Kaufman baby death. It seems that the Q&S committee has "investigated" without speaking to all that were present in that room and have concluded that both babies were still born and they prayed one back to life (only one).

I am not going to pursue any communications with the people that I have been asked to. These people are long standing ministers in TCoG and TCoG members, ministers, and overseers that want to speak with them have had every opportunity to do so on their own. You have their contact info readily available to do so now if you choose. They know the truth and their testimony will weigh heavily but that's not my responsibility to gather.

I am not a member of TCoG, will not be, and do not choose to be. You must fight your own battles with your politicians, committees, etc. The men of your organization have a voice and they need to use it. If they are not willing to stand up and be heard in front of their peers, fellow members, and the ministry as a whole then why have a voice?

I still want and pray for justice for the Kaufman children and hope fore grace for Sam and Tammi. Everyone involved needs prayer indeed.

I am on the Q&S Committee and what is said here about our report is a false rumor which is being spread by Danny on the internet. Even if he were misinformed, he delights in malicious slander against TCOG. In this post, he makes a pretense of not wanting to be involved in this. Danny, if you don't want to be involved, don't post about it on the worldwide web. This is sheer hypocrisy on your part.

Remember the words of Gameliel that if this be not of God, it will come to naught, but if it is of God, to fight it, is to fight against God. I was not in New Mexico, but I believe the testimony that one of the babies was raised from the dead. What about it readers, do you believe God raises the dead? Jesus did. He commanded the apostles to raise the dead. I was not in New Mexico and I cannot testify that this happened, but I would be afraid to speak against it, lest I blaspheme against the Holy Ghost. Be careful, folks.

BTW, I am on my wife's computer. She is "BLESSED" to have me as a husband.

Shepherd

[Pastor Gary]

I was not in New Mexico, but I believe the testimony that one of the babies was raised from the dead. What about it readers, do you believe God raises the dead?

Clever bait & switch there. You slipped smoothly from:
"I believe the testimony that one of the babies was raised from the dead" to "do you believe God raises the dead?" as if those are the same!

Yes, I DO believe God raises the dead.
NO I do not believe the testimony that one of the babies was raised from the dead.

[paul]

Blessed

BTW, Paul, do you have any respect for quarantines or do you ignore them?

Nice try: I have not crossed any quarantine line or premises on my own. I have requestd permission to cross and enter area where infections were quarantined for the purpose of praying for them. I have entered leper colonies on numerous occasions. If someone is brought to me for prayer, I would not send them away. I will pray for them Matt:10

As far as the response of "do I believe that God can raise someone from the dead. Absolutely, I have seen it, bare witness to it on several occasions. You might read Hidi Bakers account in Mozambique were they have recored over 180 accounts.

Do I believe the baby in question was raised? I wasn't there..but from the original post and the dialog...I would say no.

[one love]

PG and Paul explain your evidence and how that you know so much more then us all. I have no idea but I sure would love to know how you do. So please clarify.

Nobody was turned away from being prayed for at all.

Shall I start pointing out every little thing about COGOP and make it into a mountain on this site as many of you do?

Shall I pass so many judgements as you do Paul?

[Pastor Gary]

PG and Paul explain your evidence and how that you know so much more then us all. I have no idea but I sure would love to know how you do. So please clarify.

This is so obviously face-saving, revisionist history that only the firmly entrenched true-believers could possibly buy it.

I read the initial news reports, the follow-up reports and the official statement released by GO Smith's office in response... no mention of miraculous resurrections to be found anywhere until Assembly time. Yeah.

If I prayed a baby back from the dead, and reporters were asking for interviews, I'd be giving God glory on every turn. This has the smell of rewrite all over it, and it has ZERO to do with TCOG or any individuals involved, because I have no dog in that hunt.

[one love]

PG and Paul explain your evidence and how that you know so much more then us all. I have no idea but I sure would love to know how you do. So please clarify.

This is so obviously face-saving, revisionist history that only the firmly entrenched true-believers could possibly buy it.

I read the initial news reports, the follow-up reports and the official statement released by GO Smith's office in response... no mention of miraculous resurrections to be found anywhere until Assembly time. Yeah.

If I prayed a baby back from the dead, and reporters were asking for interviews, I'd be giving God glory on every turn. This has the smell of rewrite all over it, and it has ZERO to do with TCOG or any individuals involved, because I have no dog in that hunt.

None of this has anything to do with the assembly. The whole thing was brought up because people who do not talk online are at the assembly and simply were talking one to the other. Show me which report says the second born baby was born healthy and fine.

Nobody is trying to rewrite anything? Re write it to what and why? The issue has not changed. I never read anywhere that the second baby did not have health problems as a matter of fact I read the opposite. I read the baby was placed in the hospital.

So again tell me the reason you know more then those that were there or the actual parents? Are you calling them liars? Did I ask any of them? NO I am not sure what happened PG that is why I am mystified how you do.

Oh yeah you read a report made by a man that could not even get Danny's story correct.....

I am only aware of Brother smith responding with our church teaching that we do not believe it is wrong to go to the doctor.

I am really just curious how you are so sure when I am not sure what happened at all. I know I HEARD that the baby was suffering for 3 hours but I dont believe that is factual. It was the first one born and was doing okay. Then the next delivery happened and had issues. It was not until later the first one had issues and then died. This is what i was told. DO I KNOW FOR SURE NO!

Nor do I really want to. I am saddened by the whole thing. People have used this story to cause hurt and insult to parents that lost a loved one. I would never plan to have a baby that way, however people choose to do so everyday. My best friend is a doctor and was going to do that.

Neither story changes any view of Brother Smith so what would re writing this do?

[Pastor Gary]

I have stated my opinion... my gut feeling... my intuition about what I perceive to be the truth here. I am entitled to that view, as you are entitled to yours.

I couldn't care less about TCOGs Assembly, Committee reports or GO... I am not one who has spent a lot of time worrying about them at all. I am simply responding to the claim of resurrection that -- in this case -- I don't believe.

My OPINION is that two babies were tragically born in distress, one was either stillborn or died quickly (depending upon what you believe) and the other survived after prayer and medical intervention, for which I am very thankful.

[MisterTEA]

Bishop Smith did not ban anyone from the healing service. He said that if someone with swine flu should come to the healing service desiring prayer that they could be prayed for in a separate room. Bishop Smith would not hestitate to go in the separate room and pray for them. On Jude2, of course, this was a "no win" situation for Bishop Smith. Whether he respects a quarantine or ignores it, someone, not everyone, on Jude 2 will demonize him. BTW, Paul, do you have any respect for quarantines or do you ignore them?


BTW, I am on my wife's computer, she is "BLESSED" to have me as a husband?

Shepherd

Due to this response, I have corrected my previous post...

However, from my viewpoint as an outsider... for the GO to ban ones from a healing service (CORRECTION: I mean "healing line", not "healing service", I made it clear in my previous post that the GO would pray for the individual seperately) because of one being contagious is laughable and shows a gross lack of faith on the GO and members that seems to be panicing about this.

Once again, I agree that people should stay home if they are sick and could be contagious. But, if the spirit leads them to the general assembly to be prayed for, they should be welcomed by the saints and the entire ministry of the church should step forward and lay holy hands on the individual without fear.

But I will lay off of this healing line discussion and once again concede that these are just my opinions and many may not agree and I respect that.

I will go back to lurking as you all debate about the New Mexico situation and blashpemy

[paul]

[Blessed

Remember the words of Gameliel that if this be not of God, it will come to naught, but if it is of God, to fight it, is to fight against God. I was not in New Mexico, but I believe the testimony that one of the babies was raised from the dead. What about it readers, do you believe God raises the dead? Jesus did. He commanded the apostles to raise the dead. I was not in New Mexico and I cannot testify that this happened,

but I would be afraid to speak against it, lest I blaspheme against the Holy Ghost. Be careful, folks.

BTW, I am on my wife's computer. She is "BLESSED" to have me as a husband.

BTW, Paul, do you have any respect for quarantines or do you ignore them?

I was not in New Mexico, but I believe the testimony that one of the babies was raised from the dead. What about it readers, do you believe God raises the dead?

Always interesting when you share your oponion concerning something. One states his view based on the information he has and in response to the prevbious post.

Then you get the above quotes....be careful lest you blaspheme the Holy Spirit, because I do not think that the child was raised from the dead based on what I have seen posted. That is so biblically incorrect that it defies any scriptural logic at all.

Then because one does not agreee with the idea that this child was raised...that you do not believe that It can be done ?

I remember an overseer I worked under who went to TCOG and was an overseer there for some time. He use to preach and come up with some totally off the wall statement. Something that could not be proved scripturally at all. He would know it, then make the statement. " If that ain't the Holy Ghost then nothing is."

His manipulation was to make you feell that it was not him you were disagreeing with but the Holy Ghost. I deplore that tactic. That is why countless ministers left from my generation.

BTW if you think that this would constitute blasphemy of the Holy Ghost...then you need to take a closer look at the scriptures. IMHO

[one love]

I have stated my opinion... my gut feeling... my intuition about what I perceive to be the truth here. I am entitled to that view, as you are entitled to yours.

I couldn't care less about TCOGs Assembly, Committee reports or GO... I am not one who has spent a lot of time worrying about them at all. I am simply responding to the claim of resurrection that -- in this case -- I don't believe.

My OPINION is that two babies were tragically born in distress, one was either stillborn or died quickly (depending upon what you believe) and the other survived after prayer and medical intervention, for which I am very thankful.

Yeah your opinion.... you have no idea though. So your gut feeling determines what you believe to be true? Interesting. You are entitled to your opinion as am I. I am not sure what happened. I am MAN enough to admit that.

I am so glad you "could care less about TCOG assembly or its GO" such love. Your opinion is based on a persons post and a reporter that got a lot of info from people that WERE not there.

You may not care Brother But know that i care what happens with you and COGOP. I have shown you love from the time I came here. Not even knowing you I prayed for your church when it was becoming reunion. I sent you a letter as well. None the less you are assuming but I respect your opinion. It may be true. I dont know.
The ones in the room do. The parents DO. God does. I am not bold enough to call people that have never shown to be liars a liar.

Paul again what is your opinion based upon? Facts? Rumors? Or do you have some inside info that I dont have?

This issue is really not what I am getting at. My point is I have seen some of the most judgemental post from you Paul and then claim how free you are. It will never matter how much love is shown, care is given, Money that is given with a pure heart and love. Some of you will not treat anyone that believes in the "OLD paths" as you put it, with respect.

You will treat everyone of different beliefs with respect and Boast of it but are harshly judgemental of us ALL the time.
You claim to know what we believe but keep distorting it to no end. You claim that "we will never grow" though we are still growing. For some reason you refrain showing love to those that honestly just feel as you used to (accpet for those that believed the extreme legalistic personal convictions that are not official teachings)

To be honest it does truly hurt, when you really are displaying love and getting shot down with straight disrespect.

[Pastor Gary]

Yeah your opinion.... you have no idea though. So your gut feeling determines what you believe to be true? Interesting. You are entitled to your opinion as am I. I am not sure what happened. I am MAN enough to admit that.

Kevin -- where's all this hostility coming from? I have not said anything ugly about you, about the family, about TCOG, about your GO, your Committee... I reacted to a thread with an opinion, which is what we do here.

I am so glad you "could care less about TCOG assembly or its GO" such love. Your opinion is based on a persons post and a reporter that got a lot of info from people that WERE not there.

You know what I meant, and you are spinning it... what I meant was that I am not commenting based upon who it was, what church they attend, or who is in charge. (And you KNOW that, based upon my track record of not being one always piling on your organization.) We all base our views on what we know, because we can't be everywhere; I have views on Obama even though I have never met him... I have views on the war, the economy, and a hundred other things based upon what I see on the news, read in magazines and discuss online. Why is this different?

You may not care Brother But know that i care what happens with you and COGOP. I have shown you love from the time I came here. Not even knowing you I prayed for your church when it was becoming reunion. I sent you a letter as well.

Again - I think you have read meaning into my words that are not there and not intended.

I am not bold enough to call people that have never shown to be liars a liar.

I didn't call them liars, at all. I said that, in my opinion, they have interpreted the events in a way that makes all concerned look and feel better, but is unlikely to be accurate.

To be honest it does truly hurt, when you really are displaying love and getting shot down with straight disrespect.

None of this is ABOUT you, buddy; why are YOU disrespected if someone thinks others are interpreting events wrong??