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[paul]

Paul again what is your opinion based upon? Facts? Rumors? Or do you have some inside info that I dont have?

This issue is really not what I am getting at. My point is I have seen some of the most judgemental post from you Paul and then claim how free you are. It will never matter how much love is shown, care is given, Money that is given with a pure heart and love. Some of you will not treat anyone that believes in the "OLD paths" as you put it, with respect.

You will treat everyone of different beliefs with respect and Boast of it but are harshly judgemental of us ALL the time.
You claim to know what we believe but keep distorting it to no end. You claim that "we will never grow" though we are still growing. For some reason you refrain showing love to those that honestly just feel as you used to (accpet for those that believed the extreme legalistic personal convictions that are not official teachings)

onelove, sorry if you are taking it judgemental.....for about the third time I was responding from the post that have appeared.....I even said that I was not there....but from what I have read I would have to believe that as PG stated, through prayer and medical help the child survived. from the imformation posted it does not seem to be a case of the raising from the dead. That is my OPONION, and only my OPONION.

It is distorted to say that because I feel this was " be careful, lest one blaspheme the Holy Ghost."

If your group or ANY GROUP or ORGANIZATION uses those type of intimidating statements it will indeed hinder them from any sustainable growth. That is not my judgement, it is FACT.

I left cogop before the 93 whatever split.......I don't care about what ever the issues were. My prayer is that your group will grow...Several of those I grew up with went with your group, I still love them and have fellowship with a couple.

There is only one that I know of in your group that I have serious issues with, but as we all will, he will stand before God one day and give an account.

onelove, my statements are plain and truthful from my heart......as I have said, I think that any one brought to be prayed for, no matter the situation should be prayed for...PERIOD. I simply agreed with MR T that as one who looks in from the outside, given the information posted it does seem like a double standard. that would hold true for my organization or any. That is my oponion, my oponion only, don't take it personally it, it is not intended that way.

Long live the COG COGOP TCOG COGHNC TCOGNEIGHBORS and all the rest. And I sincerely mean that. May each one reach a group the other might not. While everyone tries to sort out the differences I will do as your dad use to
sing " To the regions beyong, I must go, I must go " Love the way they sang that old hymn

[TW]

If my memory serves me correctly the initial reports of this stated that both babies were born alive, but in distress. It wasn't until the one stopped breathing entirely that any action was taken other than praying for them. That is the fact that has me most upset with the "Prayer Warriors" that were present. I will repeat what I said before; YES, PRAY FOR THEM! BUT CALL 911!!! The brain starts to die in as little as two minutes after breathing stops, that doesn't allow much time for the Emergency responders to get there and have a chance to save the baby. The actions of the people present in that hotel room were irresponsible at best.


TW

[one love]

PG,


maybe I have read more into this and if so I apologize. Reading your post now hit me different then the other one did. Thank you for your response.


Paul,

I also appreciate the response and I think I see a little more clearly as to what you Both were saying. I will respond in more detail to BOTH of these post after I rest tonight and read them again tomorrow. I admit I am not feeling good. THere are some in TCOG that I REALLY do not get along with either.... Could be the same person. I just want people to respect each organization as I try to do. I could have extreme anger toward COGOP but I dont. I have sent money to multiple people here in COGOP and others, when I felt prompted of the Lord and would do it again. Sometimes I take these statements personally

Paul My Dad is very sick. He is in real bad shape. He has went from great health to not being able to walk or even sign his name in 4 years...
Your remark about his singing stopped all my thoughts about this issue and brought tears to my eyes, thank you for remembering that. Seriously I have no idea what prompted you to write that when I was thinking of him, but .......
I was not aware that you remembered him.
Pray for him.

I will read this whole thread again tomorrow.

[Blessed]

Paul,

You are dodging the questioned. Right now in the United States, doctors are saying that if one has the swine flu, that they should not be out in the public until they have been fever-free without medication for 24 hours. I consider that as a form of quarantine. If you were having a healing service with hundreds attending, would you respect the quarantine or ignore it? Under such conditions would you think it unreasonable to pray for those who showed up in a separate room? Also, throw in the factor that there are other aspects to the meeting and that some who come with their small children are there for reasons other than a healing service and would consider their children unwillingly exposed. Also, throw in the factor that you are renting the building from someone else who has administrative personel and cleaning crews on the premises. Regardless to what you would do, or you really ready to make an accusation that under these conditions that if another minister chose to pray for those (whom the health department says should be quarantined) in another room, the minister does not have faith for their healing and is afraid that he would catch the disease? Please give an honest answer.

[paul]

Kevin

Paul My Dad is very sick. He is in real bad shape. He has went from great health to not being able to walk or even sign his name in 4 years...
Your remark about his singing stopped all my thoughts about this issue and brought tears to my eyes, thank you for remembering that.

Seriously I have no idea what prompted you to write that when I was thinking of him, but ....... I was not aware that you remembered him.
Pray for him.

That is what is so awsome about our God, Kevin....HE DID KNOW, He knew what you needed, and without anyone being aware, He touched you, and I will stand in agreement with you concerning your fathers health.

I pray even now that whatever , disease, dehabiliating sickness that has come upon him. I pray to the Father in the name of Jesus Christ that these be broken off his body. I come against every assignment of the enemy that has attacked his body, and I proclaim the authority of the word of God, that by His stripes we are healed, I pray strength, cognative ability to write, to rise up and with strengthened legs to walk once again,and to sing praises unto you.
The word tells us that Lord you are the same yesterday, today and forever. You healed the lame, you enpowered the early church to do the same through the Holy Spirit. Lord do it again.
I stand in agreement with Kevin for his father. I stand on the promise you gave me in your word that were two or more are in agreement you are not only with them but also whatsoever we ask shall be granted unto us. According to your word if we believe, then we know you hear us, if we know you hear us, then we know we shall have that which we requested. This is our confidence, you told us not to cast away our confidence because it has great recompense. We speak tonight that this reward will be the healing of Kevins dad.
I pray that even as his father would sing the song that made many laugh " turn your radio on" that in his inner man that indeed the radio is turned on, that his inner man would be able to take hold of your provision of healing, that he would hear your voice and stand on the promise which you have given him.
We again ask this in the name of your Son, our Lord and Savior, Jesus the Christ, the anointed one.

[MisterTEA]

Paul,

You are dodging the questioned. Right now in the United States, doctors are saying that if one has the swine flu, that they should not be out in the public until they have been fever-free without medication for 24 hours. I consider that as a form of quarantine. If you were having a healing service with hundreds attending, would you respect the quarantine or ignore it? Under such conditions would you think it unreasonable to pray for those who showed up in a separate room? Also, throw in the factor that there are other aspects to the meeting and that some who come with their small children are there for reasons other than a healing service and would consider their children unwillingly exposed. Also, throw in the factor that you are renting the building from someone else who has administrative personel and cleaning crews on the premises. Regardless to what you would do, or you really ready to make an accusation that under these conditions that if another minister chose to pray for those (whom the health department says should be quarantined) in another room, the minister does not have faith for their healing and is afraid that he would catch the disease? Please give an honest answer.

The concerns that you mention (cleaning crew, rented facility, etc.) are legitimate answers to defend Smith's decision. You win, congratulations!!!!

[MisterTEA]

I apologize for opening this can of worms. It is surprising to me how twisted up some get over others voicing their opinion. I have no dog in this fight. And, even if I see blatant hypocripsy in the leadership of their church, it is not my responsibility to call him out.

I guess the loudest statement that I could make was to remove myself from membership and fellowship with these people. And I have already done that. So, now I will remain silent.

So please accept my sincere apologies.

[paul]

Paul,

You are dodging the questioned.

I am not dodging anything

Right now in the United States, doctors are saying that if one has the swine flu, that they should not be out in the public until they have been fever-free without medication for 24 hours

.

I am aware of that

I consider that as a form of quarantine

I have No problem with that

If you were having a healing service with hundreds attending, would you respect the quarantine or ignore it? Under such conditions would you think it unreasonable to pray for those who showed up in a separate room?

That was not the post, the post was they were asked not to get in the healing line. my response is still the same...if they are in line then pray for them. They have already broken the quarantine.

Also, throw in the factor that there are other aspects to the meeting and that some who come with their small children are there for reasons other than a healing service and would consider their children unwillingly exposed. Also, throw in the factor that you are renting the building from someone else who has administrative personel and cleaning crews on the premises.

This is all after the fact, speculation on your part. I responded to a statement concerning tha it gave the apperance of a double standard, still does. I am not referring to them being there all day, playing in the sand box with little joey and sally. I am referring to what was stated as a child who needed prayer. If they choose to use a seperate room, tha is there option.

Regardless to what you would do, or you really ready to make an accusation that under these conditions that if another minister chose to pray for those (whom the health department says should be quarantined) in another room, the minister does not have faith for their healing and is afraid that he would catch the disease?

Very simple for me here, If the minister wants to obey the quarentine fine, but if someone is brought to us for prayer, no matter what the circumstance are, no matter the sickness or disease we have an obligation to pray for them. If I, or any one is afraid for themselves that they might catch a disease by laying hands on them, then how can they truly believe for a miracle of healing when they arn't sure God can even keep them from getting the disease or sickness.

If that is there, then it is fear, that fear will bring doubt and doubt will bring unbelief and unbelief will bring unanswered prayers. We have not been given a spirit of fear....

Please give an honest answer.

I have, although I don't think it is the one you wanted

[dbserv]

but I would be afraid to speak against it, lest I blaspheme against the Holy Ghost. Be careful, folks.

BTW, I am on my wife's computer. She is "BLESSED" to have me as a husband.

Shepherd

Based on my understanding of Scripture, this discussion doesn't even come close to "blasphemy" of the Spirit (Holy Ghost).


And, your wife is "BLESSED".

[one love]

Paul,

You are dodging the questioned.

I am not dodging anything

Right now in the United States, doctors are saying that if one has the swine flu, that they should not be out in the public until they have been fever-free without medication for 24 hours

.

I am aware of that

I consider that as a form of quarantine

I have No problem with that

If you were having a healing service with hundreds attending, would you respect the quarantine or ignore it? Under such conditions would you think it unreasonable to pray for those who showed up in a separate room?

That was not the post, the post was they were asked not to get in the healing line. my response is still the same...if they are in line then pray for them. They have already broken the quarantine.

Also, throw in the factor that there are other aspects to the meeting and that some who come with their small children are there for reasons other than a healing service and would consider their children unwillingly exposed. Also, throw in the factor that you are renting the building from someone else who has administrative personel and cleaning crews on the premises.

This is all after the fact, speculation on your part. I responded to a statement concerning tha it gave the apperance of a double standard, still does. I am not referring to them being there all day, playing in the sand box with little joey and sally. I am referring to what was stated as a child who needed prayer. If they choose to use a seperate room, tha is there option.

Regardless to what you would do, or you really ready to make an accusation that under these conditions that if another minister chose to pray for those (whom the health department says should be quarantined) in another room, the minister does not have faith for their healing and is afraid that he would catch the disease?

Very simple for me here, If the minister wants to obey the quarentine fine, but if someone is brought to us for prayer, no matter what the circumstance are, no matter the sickness or disease we have an obligation to pray for them. If I, or any one is afraid for themselves that they might catch a disease by laying hands on them, then how can they truly believe for a miracle of healing when they arn't sure God can even keep them from getting the disease or sickness.

If that is there, then it is fear, that fear will bring doubt and doubt will bring unbelief and unbelief will bring unanswered prayers. We have not been given a spirit of fear....

Please give an honest answer.

I have, although I don't think it is the one you wanted

I could be wrong but I think you misunderstood the post. This was made before the healing line ever happened. I believe this discussion started the night before. Nobody came to go in the healing line and were told to go somewhere else at all.
To be honest I am sure some with swine flu went through the line. I never heard any announcement asking anyone not to go through.

I believe the person talked to him before the assembly or a few days prior to that service and some were concerned and he was saying that we would pray for them in another room. meaning the ministers would still pray for the sick just trying to not place them in the same area as others that are elderly and young. I could be wrong but that is what I thought this was about. NO minister was saying they would not pray. I thought it was more about the congregation.

I remember in the early 1900's they could not even have a assembly.

[Shepherd]

[Blessed

Remember the words of Gameliel that if this be not of God, it will come to naught, but if it is of God, to fight it, is to fight against God. I was not in New Mexico, but I believe the testimony that one of the babies was raised from the dead. What about it readers, do you believe God raises the dead? Jesus did. He commanded the apostles to raise the dead. I was not in New Mexico and I cannot testify that this happened,

but I would be afraid to speak against it, lest I blaspheme against the Holy Ghost. Be careful, folks.

BTW, I am on my wife's computer. She is "BLESSED" to have me as a husband.

BTW, Paul, do you have any respect for quarantines or do you ignore them?

I was not in New Mexico, but I believe the testimony that one of the babies was raised from the dead. What about it readers, do you believe God raises the dead?

Always interesting when you share your oponion concerning something. One states his view based on the information he has and in response to the prevbious post.

Then you get the above quotes....be careful lest you blaspheme the Holy Spirit, because I do not think that the child was raised from the dead based on what I have seen posted. That is so biblically incorrect that it defies any scriptural logic at all.

Then because one does not agreee with the idea that this child was raised...that you do not believe that It can be done ?

I remember an overseer I worked under who went to TCOG and was an overseer there for some time. He use to preach and come up with some totally off the wall statement. Something that could not be proved scripturally at all. He would know it, then make the statement. " If that ain't the Holy Ghost then nothing is."

His manipulation was to make you feell that it was not him you were disagreeing with but the Holy Ghost. I deplore that tactic. That is why countless ministers left from my generation.

BTW if you think that this would constitute blasphemy of the Holy Ghost...then you need to take a closer look at the scriptures. IMHO

Paul,

I have never in my life told anyone that they had blasphemed against the Holy Ghost. I can't find where Jesus actually told any individual that they had blasphemed against the Holy Ghost. He made it clear that it can be done and that it is an unfogiveable sin and he warned against it. If someone tells me that they can't be saved because they have blasphemed against the Holy Ghost, I point out to them that the devil wants them to think they have blasphemed whether they have or not and I encourage them to ask Christ into their heart. I believe that if under the anointing of the Holy Ghost that demons are cast out, the dead raised, etc., that to speak against it is to risk blasphemy and that people should be careful in this regard. If Pastor Gary told me that you prayed for a dead man and he came back to life, for me personally, I would be afraid to speak against it. Whether someone actually blasphemes or not, is between them and God, but I will continue to warn against it and fear God, lest I do it (Mark 3:22-30).

[EagerBeaver]

I once had a pastor who debunked the common dogmatic belief regarding the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.

He said simply that if you're worried about ever having done it, or what it even constitutes, then you haven't even done it and there's no need to worry.

Basically the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is saying and believing that Jesus works miracles, saves and heals by the power of the devil, right?

If that's the case, I don't even see how the "unforgivable sin" could even remotely tie in to the discussion.

[dolfan]

Is there a serious belief here that people with swine flu or any other very contagious disease/illness should make their way to a large public gathering? I mean, wouldn't everyday wisdom suggest that you not go? Isn't love the watching for the welfare of others? How is it a loving thing to take your contagious self/child/friend/relative to a close gathering of lots of people who are all breathing on each other and talking (and, thus, spitting) on one another in close quarters? I don't get that.

Should someone dispatch to the sick person to pray? Yes! Send people, anoint, pray, all that. Do it. But, I'm finding it really, really hard to level even slight criticism at any advice to cordon off contagious people from the prayer line. What would've been terrific and even worthy of good news coverage (Lord knows that wouldn't hurt) would've been for the assembly to call for the names of everyone in town with the swine flu, and to have dispatched people out in pairs or threes or whatever to pray for them. Talk about power! That would've been something to witness, and would've been a witness. At any rate, I just am a little dumbfounded I guess at any criticism about the handling of it at the assembly gathering. Maybe I just don't know enough.

As far as it being hypocritical in relation to the Kaufman situation, I don't see it. These are two entirely different things, two entirely and unrelated situations with no similarities at all. Whatever happened in NM happened, and I said my piece about it --- and as far as I know, no one has yet to state that the baby would've lived had medical care been given, no one has yet to state that the baby would've died had medical care been given. I'd still like to know the medical conclusion on that. Not that I'm waffling on my criticism of those present, because I'm not; but, these two situations are just so different that there's no meaningful comparison from which you can base a claim of hypocrisy.

[MisterTEA]

dolfan- rather than call it hypocrisy, I am going to call it my "personal views on ones contradiction of faith". I apologize for using the word "hypocrisy", sometimes that word is thrown around too loosly (as are other words).

I have a certain perception/opinion on this whole thing and I do see a correlation between the two situations. This either means that my mind is too shallow or my mind is too deep (Probably, too shallow ).

If any other person (besides Stephen Smith) and any other organization (besides TCOG) would have took the stance regarding the swine flu, I would not have been so critical. But in my OPINION, in light of the lack of concern for safety and wellfare of the Kaufamn babies (not calling 911 right away), I was surprised that Smith was so vigiliant to follow medical protocol at the general assembly.

Shepard made some valid points regarding why Smith made the decisions that he did and I have been pursuaded that I may have jumped the gun in my criticism.

But if Smith continues to teach and preach against taking medicine and against going to doctors, he needs to be prepared that he is going to cause himself and his entire organization to be subject to much more public scrutiny than he could ever imagine. (Especially, in light of the fact that what he is preaching/teaching contradicts with the church's official position and the views of most of its membership).

[dbserv]

Basically the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is saying and believing that Jesus works miracles, saves and heals by the power of the devil, right?

Actually, Chris, I don't see it that way. There are many great men/women of God who still believe that the "pentecostal/charismatic gifts" are NOT of God and should be rejected. That doesn't make them any less Christian or mean that they have blasphemed the H.S. = "unforgiven sin".


IMHO, the only way to blaspheme the H.S. is to ignore the convicting work of the H.S. and reject forgiveness for our sins.


1. Failure to accept Christ as our Saviour will keep us out of Heaven = an "unforgiven" "sin". Any other "sin" can be forgiven. But, when we turn and accept the forgiveness, then we are no longer committing that "sin" of rejecting His forgiveness.

2. The primary initial work of the H.S. is to convict us of sin and bring us to a relationship with Christ.



So, to reject the H.S. nudging and refuse to accept God's forgiveness of our sins, becomes a "sin" and = a blasphemy of the H.S. who is trying to turn us to Christ.


I wish this was, but this isn't my original thinking on this. I don't recall where I first heard this, or from whom (I wish I did so I could give credit for it). But, for me, this is the only theory/definition that truly fits or makes sense.



I hope that I have explained this sufficiently so it makes sense.


Thanks and God Bless!!!