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Paully_44
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Postby Paully_44 » September 15th, 2009, 6:39 pm

dawgs10 wrote:bush did not respect those he served and he sure wasnt reachable by the common man. bush was not held accountable for spending so much money and killing thousands of American men and women in Iraq when the majority was not for the war. bush was not accountable when he gave billions to the MAN in the beginning bail outs. but when people said something about him they were called cowards and unpatriotic. sorry if you want that office to be accountable to the common people it stoped with gwb. people have lost their minds if they think that given people health care and making corp america provide health care for thier workers that are doing the work that is putting money in corp americas pockets in which most do not pay tithes to the God that placed them in that position. ive watched the hard right act insane and the far left act insane and its time for the common middle to take it all back!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Thank you. The office did not suddenly fall apart and respect lost on Jan 20th of this year. It happend long before that.
Let the wild rumpus start!

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Postby dawgs10 » September 16th, 2009, 2:03 am

pastorables wrote:
dawgs10 wrote: working three part time jobs and not having health care is not right in america. almost every other major country in this world provides health care for their people. greed keeps someone making 2-3 million a year for their selves while they run companies with most of their employees lacking health care while working 30 hours a week. (its only greed) so put some more money in your pockets while people die for the lack of health care.


Are you saying that you support the "socialist healthcare plan"?

pa


i love the way people use the word "socialist" anytime the profit margins might be a little smaller. given people what they earn is not socialism.

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Postby pastorables » September 16th, 2009, 2:31 am

dawgs10 wrote:i love the way people use the word "socialist" anytime the profit margins might be a little smaller. given people what they earn is not socialism.


You didn't answer the question. Do you support the healthcare plan?

If so, I would say you don't have a clue concerning what it truly entails. I have not had health insurance in almost 15 years. God has been full of grace and mercy to my family. If having a government controlled health plan is my only other option, I am not interested.

Just take some time to study similar health care models in other countries. You might be surprised.

Blessings,
pa
"He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose."Jim Elliot - Missionary Martyr

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dawgs10
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Postby dawgs10 » September 16th, 2009, 2:50 am

pastorables wrote:
dawgs10 wrote:i love the way people use the word "socialist" anytime the profit margins might be a little smaller. given people what they earn is not socialism.


You didn't answer the question. Do you support the healthcare plan?

If so, I would say you don't have a clue concerning what it truly entails. I have not had health insurance in almost 15 years. God has been full of grace and mercy to my family. If having a government controlled health plan is my only other option, I am not interested.

Just take some time to study similar health care models in other countries. You might be surprised.

Blessings,


pa


to answer your last question i would repeat what i said earlier. i dont think that the repub or dem. parties have the answer. but yes this country does deserve health care. part time people working for greedy people that only provide health care to a very small amount of their work force should be offered health care at the expense of those pocketing millions in profits. the lesson is, do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

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Postby Shellie » September 16th, 2009, 3:49 am

dawgs wrote:

but yes this country does deserve health care.


I'm sorry...I didn't think "health care" was in the Bill of Rights.

We are in the condition we are in because of welfare....period. We have created a nation of people that do not think you should have to work for food, shelter, and daily needs. Thank you, Kennedy, for your New Frontier!

Why does the Reagan Revolution pop into my mind at this juncture?

We have created a bunch of lazy, casting the blame, poor-mouth free-loaders because of welfare mentality. If the bleeding hearts of America want to support them, let them... but don't expect me to share your cup of kool-aid.
There never was a horse that couldn't be rode and there never was a cowboy that couldn't be throwed.

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Postby dolfan » September 16th, 2009, 4:01 am

Dawgs, with all respect, I think you're taking a position that is, by definition, socialist, and is, by perspective, naive and pollyanna-ish.

Health care finance is not the concern of the federal government. Our Constitution does not empower Congress to police public health, nor does it empower Congress to regulate the private relationships between citizens and their health care providers of choice. Health care regulation is not an inherent, necessary aspect of governance. If it was, then even municipalities all over the nation would be doing it. (I know a relatively few municipalities are governed by leftists and do regulate health care to some degree; that is the exception, not the rule.) The federal government lacks the authority to do what it proposes to do. It has the power because it WILL do it, to some extent, and the people will not stop it, but it lacks the constitutional authority, an authority that it cannot legitimately gain by negative implication that the government might assert simply because the people, in fact, don't stop it.

Because health care finance is not an inherent, necessary aspect of governance, and because it is the natural right of every individual to regulate his or her own health care by choosing whether to purchase insurance, whether to self-finance, whether to be in debt, whether to even seek care at all --- and because there is no legal duty of the public to help individuals make harder choices easier in this regard --- the only remaining option to define the actual exercise of power by government to regulate health care and health care finance is socialism.

Why? Because to accomplish it, government must confiscate the fruits of my production that I produce for my own self, my own family, my own use and convert its use to fund the machinery of government and the machinery of health care finance. This taking occurs without my consent, and against my opposition. There is no more basic, bedrock example of socialist policy.

Now, as to the naivete of your view, it is no answer to the criticisms of Obama that his critics were not also critics of President Bush. It is a stone cold fact that George W. Bush grew the federal government to unprecedented levels. Yet, they were not geometric in scale, as is the level of growth in both scope and sheer dollars under the Obama presidency. That Bush and Obama stand in some measure of relief to one another in terms of foreign policy, and that Obama's critics supported Bush in those policies, is also no answer to the criticisms of Obama. It is a rhetorical retort, not a substantive one. But, to soothe the savage breast that rages in you about Bush, I acknowledge that George W. Bush was guilty of growing the scope of federal executive power and that it was and remains bad for America. However, Obama is building on that foundation, not removing it.

Your gripe about health care finance is that working people "deserve" a bigger piece of the pie that is earned by "greedy" corporations. You base your argument on what you view as a moral proposition that there ought to be some fairness in the playing field of American society, some fairness in the distribution of resources. Well, fine. Everyone's entitled to their opinion. But, the bottom line is that there is no moral "ought" that American wealth should be distributed in any other manner than what is preferred by those who create that wealth at their own risk.

Each person's "deal" in life is their own responsibility under our civil structure. No one is responsible for the choices, the opportunities, the lack of opportunties or the health and wealth of others. That is especially true in the case of employers and employees. It strikes me that you should cite Jesus' commandment to do unto others as you would have done unto you, as if that has anything to say to this situation. Here's why I say that.

Jesus said nothing to any governmental leader about how government should be or could be better. Nothing. The record is wholly absent. It wasn't His concern. But, He did precisely speak to the notion of "fairness" in the distribution of wealth, the relationships between the wealth-creator and the employee.

In Matthew, Jesus told the famous "parable of the laborers". You know the story. Workers appear before a vineyard master at various times in the course of a day, each makes their own deal to work for him, some guys wind up working a whole day and some only a short part of a day, but at the end he pays them all the same. One of the laborers objects --- he says, "Whoa! This isn't fair. I worked all day and you paid me only as much as you paid this guy who just got here and hardly broke a sweat."

Jesus' vineyard master in the parable didn't respond, "I did this because everyone deserves to be treated equally and there is no one in my vineyard who will get an advantage over another." That's exactly NOT what His point was. Instead, here's what the parable's master said: "Am I not allowed to do what I choose with what belongs to me?"

The vineyard belongs to the one that owns it. The government is not the owner of America's vineyard. Private Americans, the ones with the money, do. If there is a lesson to be learned from the New Testament about how things are to be ordered in this regard, it is that the one to whom a resource belongs gets to choose what he does with it. That is a moral teaching from Jesus Himself.

Now, as believers, we do everything as unto the Lord. But, our Constitution does not countenance that. Our civil government is not constituted on any order of doing government as unto God. Living unto the Lord is constitutionally a matter of liberty, choice, and individual self-determination. There is no advice that the Bible offers to government. It offers advice to people, to the ekklesia of God, to the unbelievers, but not to civil governments as such.

However, in speaking to people about the relationship between the God who owns it all and the people in His service, He made the specific point, using normal, everyday people in normal everyday business, that the wealth owner/creator is free to do with his wealth as he chooses. As God is free to do that, Jesus acknowledged, we are also free to do it ---- and there's nothing immoral about it. The take-away from that is that there is no immorality to inequality of wealth, inequality of access, inequality of opportunity. Each of us is responsible for his own "deal", as that responsibility relates to the role of civil government.
Human government bears the same relation to hell as the church bears to heaven. (David Lipscomb, On Civil Government, 72).

dawgs10
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Postby dawgs10 » September 16th, 2009, 4:06 am

Shellie wrote:dawgs wrote:

but yes this country does deserve health care.


I'm sorry...I didn't think "health care" was in the Bill of Rights.

We are in the condition we are in because of welfare....period. We have created a nation of people that do not think you should have to work for food, shelter, and daily needs. Thank you, Kennedy, for your New Frontier!

Why does the Reagan Revolution pop into my mind at this juncture?

We have created a bunch of lazy, casting the blame, poor-mouth free-loaders because of welfare mentality. If the bleeding hearts of America want to support them, let them... but don't expect me to share your cup of kool-aid.


what about the single mother working 3 part time jobs with no health care because all three companies she works for does not offer health care unless she works 35 hours a week, then they turn around and send her home after working 34 hours a week so the job will get done without the owner paying for what is deserved. this is a large amount of the uninsured people in this country. every worker should have healthcare in this country and some that dont work taken on a case by case basis. we waste so much money on things that dont matter and will not provide health care.. if you take on the responsility of employing people you take on the responsibility of taking care of those workers that give it all to you on the mill floor or the sales floor or the office floor. but instead we buy yates and extra homes and refuse to pay for healthcare. do unto others unless it gets in my pockets?????????? thats not in my Bible.

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Postby MacUser » September 16th, 2009, 4:09 am

dawgs10 wrote:but yes this country does deserve health care. part time people working for greedy people that only provide health care to a very small amount of their work force should be offered health care at the expense of those pocketing millions in profits. the lesson is, do unto others as you would have them do unto you.


Quickly.. So you think our tax dollars need to fund abortion? Illegals? End of life methods? Grandma may just need a pain pill instead of the surgery.

Are you so selfish to not see the COST and that we can't afford it? Are you so selfish that you only want what you can get and let somebody else worry about paying for it? Forget the RICH (200K up)... what if your kids, grandkids, greats are going to be the ones paying for it? You ok with that? You ok signing them up?

Are you able to write checks out of your personal account that someone else pays for? America pays 1.2 billion per month interest ONLY to China on the DEBT we have with them alone.. and we owe several other countries as well. Do you think that we can sustain that rate of increase?

Question: If you default on your car payments they come get your car. What if America defaults? Do they get Yellowstone, Washington? California?

Or do you not care.. as long as you get your check? If so, are you Greedy as well?
Chris -

... Behold, the Lamb of God, that taketh away the sin of the world!
John 1:29

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Postby dolfan » September 16th, 2009, 4:10 am

dawgs10 wrote: if you take on the responsility of employing people you take on the responsibility of taking care of those workers that give it all to you on the mill floor or the sales floor or the office floor. but instead we buy yates and extra homes and refuse to pay for healthcare. do unto others unless it gets in my pockets?????????? thats not in my Bible.


I don't know of a head-shaking icon. I can tell you right now, as a small business owner of about, oh, 13 folks, it is NOT my responsibility to do anything but pay those people what they are worth to my business. That's it. I have zero obligation for their "care". It is a job, not a teat.
Human government bears the same relation to hell as the church bears to heaven. (David Lipscomb, On Civil Government, 72).

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Postby MacUser » September 16th, 2009, 4:15 am

Shellie wrote:Thank you, Kennedy, for your New Frontier!
.


Ted Kennedy is the Poster Child for Term Limits!!!
Chris -



... Behold, the Lamb of God, that taketh away the sin of the world!

John 1:29

dawgs10
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Postby dawgs10 » September 16th, 2009, 4:22 am

MacUser wrote:
dawgs10 wrote:but yes this country does deserve health care. part time people working for greedy people that only provide health care to a very small amount of their work force should be offered health care at the expense of those pocketing millions in profits. the lesson is, do unto others as you would have them do unto you.


Quickly.. So you think our tax dollars need to fund abortion? Illegals? End of life methods? Grandma may just need a pain pill instead of the surgery.

Are you so selfish to not see the COST and that we can't afford it? Are you so selfish that you only want what you can get and let somebody else worry about paying for it? Forget the RICH (200K up)... what if your kids, grandkids, greats are going to be the ones paying for it? You ok with that? You ok signing them up?

Are you able to write checks out of your personal account that someone else pays for? America pays 1.2 billion per month interest ONLY to China on the DEBT we have with them alone.. and we owe several other countries as well. Do you think that we can sustain that rate of increase?

Question: If you default on your car payments they come get your car. What if America defaults? Do they get Yellowstone, Washington? California?

Or do you not care.. as long as you get your check? If so, are you Greedy as well?


again, the healthcare plan that is on the table at this time is not the answer. i have said this three times now. the answer may not be in the federal gov. it might have to do with the hearts of those leading corp. america. healthcare should be provided for everyone working and some special cases for those that cant if companies are pocketing winfall profits they can provide health care. bottom line.

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Postby MacUser » September 16th, 2009, 4:25 am

dawgs10 wrote:what about the single mother working 3 part time jobs with no health care because all three companies she works for does not offer health care unless she works 35 hours a week, then they turn around and send her home after working 34 hours a week so the job will get done without the owner paying for what is deserved. this is a large amount of the uninsured people in this country. every worker should have healthcare in this country and some that dont work taken on a case by case basis. we waste so much money on things that dont matter and will not provide health care.. if you take on the responsility of employing people you take on the responsibility of taking care of those workers that give it all to you on the mill floor or the sales floor or the office floor. but instead we buy yates and extra homes and refuse to pay for healthcare. do unto others unless it gets in my pockets?????????? thats not in my Bible.


Why not simply ask OBAMA not not increase your income taxes 15%? This would save average families $1,761 a year in NEW TAXES....

Obama Admin: Cap And Trade Could Cost Families $1,761 A Year
http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2009/09/15 ... 4040.shtml

If Health Care is key.. forget the Climate, eh? The money YOU will save in new taxes will allow Healthcare to be purchased? Focus on what really matters?
Chris -



... Behold, the Lamb of God, that taketh away the sin of the world!

John 1:29

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Postby dolfan » September 16th, 2009, 4:36 am

Now, you're having this both ways, Dawgs. You're arguing in favor of Obamacare and touting that it is just and right because of greed and inequality of wealth. Yet, when it gets down to cases, maybe government is not the answer. The hearts of those leading corporations is where you identify the problem, and your evidence of it is that those corporations make profits and some people can't afford care. As if a corporation that is run by people with good hearts would provide that care, and any that does not provide it is not run by people with good hearts.

Let me clear this up. The obligation is with the church. That's where the power, the obligation, the authority, the mandate to do good rests. The church of Jesus is the only, the sole, the exclusive (and, yeah, I said exclusive and church in the same sentence) entity on Earth charged with and enabled to engage in social welfare. Even that is a limited charge; the church is not responsible to create and resource the cutting edge of any answer that it may provide to any particular problem because there is still no moral "ought" that people "ought" to be "provided for". There is a command to feed, to attend to the prisoners, widows, orphans and to pray for the sick. These obligations begin within the household of God first, then to the unbeliever.
Human government bears the same relation to hell as the church bears to heaven. (David Lipscomb, On Civil Government, 72).

dawgs10
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Postby dawgs10 » September 16th, 2009, 4:37 am

dolfan wrote:
dawgs10 wrote: if you take on the responsility of employing people you take on the responsibility of taking care of those workers that give it all to you on the mill floor or the sales floor or the office floor. but instead we buy yates and extra homes and refuse to pay for healthcare. do unto others unless it gets in my pockets?????????? thats not in my Bible.


I don't know of a head-shaking icon. I can tell you right now, as a small business owner of about, oh, 13 folks, it is NOT my responsibility to do anything but pay those people what they are worth to my business. That's it. I have zero obligation for their "care". It is a job, not a teat.


but if you had 4 of those people working 35 hours a week that you offered health care to and 9 that worked 34 hours a week that you did not offer health care and they did the same work you would be wrong. what you need is someone to move in to your area of means and help people with health care. you would either give in or close your doors, as they offer people a means to a better life. you should do all you can for people giving it up for your company. why shouldnt we go the extra mile for others. that also involves our wallet sometimes.

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Postby Shellie » September 16th, 2009, 4:39 am

dawgs wrote:

what about the single mother working 3 part time jobs with no health care because all three companies she works for does not offer health care unless she works 35 hours a week, then they turn around and send her home after working 34 hours a week so the job will get done without the owner paying for what is deserved. this is a large amount of the uninsured people in this country. every worker should have healthcare in this country and some that dont work taken on a case by case basis. we waste so much money on things that dont matter and will not provide health care.. if you take on the responsility of employing people you take on the responsibility of taking care of those workers that give it all to you on the mill floor or the sales floor or the office floor. but instead we buy yates and extra homes and refuse to pay for healthcare. do unto others unless it gets in my pockets?????????? thats not in my Bible.


Nor is it in your Bible that you are take your hard earned money and provide heath care to your workers or if you are not a business owner to take your paycheck and give a portion of it for the health care of others. It IS however in your Bible to direct them to the elders of the church to receive prayer for the sick. You are comparing apples to oranges.

We may buy yachts and extra homes with the money we earned. That is our right as business owners. No where in the constitution or the Bible does it say that I MUST work to pay for others health care.

Is it moral and Godly for us to help others? Yes...the fatherless and the widows but then that is a whole other thread.
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