"You lie!" -- Truth to power

[Shellie]

dolfan wrote:

It is a job, not a teat.

You have earned my vote for quote of the year.

As a person that was raised in an area that knows what a ninny baby is....I say

[dawgs10]

Now, you're having this both ways, Dawgs. You're arguing in favor of Obamacare and touting that it is just and right because of greed and inequality of wealth. Yet, when it gets down to cases, maybe government is not the answer. The hearts of those leading corporations is where you identify the problem, and your evidence of it is that those corporations make profits and some people can't afford care. As if a corporation that is run by people with good hearts would provide that care, and any that does not provide it is not run by people with good hearts.

Let me clear this up. The obligation is with the church. That's where the power, the obligation, the authority, the mandate to do good rests. The church of Jesus is the only, the sole, the exclusive (and, yeah, I said exclusive and church in the same sentence) entity on Earth charged with and enabled to engage in social welfare. Even that is a limited charge; the church is not responsible to create and resource the cutting edge of any answer that it may provide to any particular problem because there is still no moral "ought" that people "ought" to be "provided for". There is a command to feed, to attend to the prisoners, widows, orphans and to pray for the sick. These obligations begin within the household of God first, then to the unbeliever.

i never said i was for obamacare. i said i was for health care for americans that work and for some that cant. thats what i said. people get very upset when you ask them to do more with what they have. we would be blessed if we did more with what we have. that means helping others. but when it gets to our wallet we want to scream dont tell me what to do. thats the united states of greed. im not a dem. i was once a repub. but greed is a sin, as much as abortion. to doing for others is as wrong as do bad to others.

[dolfan]

if you take on the responsility of employing people you take on the responsibility of taking care of those workers that give it all to you on the mill floor or the sales floor or the office floor. but instead we buy yates and extra homes and refuse to pay for healthcare. do unto others unless it gets in my pockets?????????? thats not in my Bible.

I don't know of a head-shaking icon. I can tell you right now, as a small business owner of about, oh, 13 folks, it is NOT my responsibility to do anything but pay those people what they are worth to my business. That's it. I have zero obligation for their "care". It is a job, not a teat.

but if you had 4 of those people working 35 hours a week that you offered health care to and 9 that worked 34 hours a week that you did not offer health care and they did the same work you would be wrong. what you need is someone to move in to your area of means and help people with health care. you would either give in or close your doors, as they offer people a means to a better life. you should do all you can for people giving it up for your company. why shouldnt we go the extra mile for others. that also involves our wallet sometimes.

That may be the single most emptyheaded thing I've read on here. I'm not being mean to you by saying that. There's an old, trite phrasing about people who mean well but just aren't thinking clearly. "White heart, empty head." I'll assume you're intentions are good, but your words are clear enough on the other part.

I don't 'need' my employees to have health insurance. If was a cost-effective aspect of our business, then maybe. I'm just flabbergasted at this notion that businesses should "do all you can for people". No. Businesses should do their business, and make their owners wealthier. There's no other reason to even be in business. If you make profit over and above the cost of doing "all you can for people", and it actually increases profits to do that, then you'd have a choice whether or not your business wants to be in the business of "doing all it can for people." Maybe you want your business to just stick to selling scrap metal or cookies or whatever. Maybe you don't want to be a jack of all trades for all men; perhaps you just like ginning cotton or sewing disposable garments. If so, that is what you should do.

[dawgs10]

[quote="Paully_44"][quote="dawgs10"]bush did not respect those he served and he sure wasnt reachable by the common man. bush was not held accountable for spending so much money and killing thousands of American men and women in Iraq when the majority was not for the war. bush was not accountable when he gave billions to the MAN in the beginning bail outs. but when people said something about him they were called cowards and unpatriotic. sorry if you want that office to be accountable to the common people it stoped with gwb. people have lost their minds if they think that given people health care and making corp america provide health care for thier workers that are doing the work that is putting money in corp americas pockets in which most do not pay tithes to the God that placed them in that position. ive watched the hard right act insane and the far left act insane and its time for the common middle to take


taking what i am saying in context colossians 4:1 would fit better than the scripture you used.Masters, give unto your servants that which is just and equal; knowing that ye also have a Master in heaven. those that cut work schedules to keep employees under the full time rate to avoid providing health care while giving others health care is wrong. it happens all the time. retail in general. Walmart, dollar stores, freds, drugstores, rite aid, cvs, are all guilty of this. they are told by their supervisors to not allow more than a percentage of people in each store to have full time status to avoid full time benefits. thats fact. thats wrong. thats what im saying. anything else is taking my statements out of context.

[dawgs10]

if you take on the responsility of employing people you take on the responsibility of taking care of those workers that give it all to you on the mill floor or the sales floor or the office floor. but instead we buy yates and extra homes and refuse to pay for healthcare. do unto others unless it gets in my pockets?????????? thats not in my Bible.

I don't know of a head-shaking icon. I can tell you right now, as a small business owner of about, oh, 13 folks, it is NOT my responsibility to do anything but pay those people what they are worth to my business. That's it. I have zero obligation for their "care". It is a job, not a teat.

but if you had 4 of those people working 35 hours a week that you offered health care to and 9 that worked 34 hours a week that you did not offer health care and they did the same work you would be wrong. what you need is someone to move in to your area of means and help people with health care. you would either give in or close your doors, as they offer people a means to a better life. you should do all you can for people giving it up for your company. why shouldnt we go the extra mile for others. that also involves our wallet sometimes.

That may be the single most emptyheaded thing I've read on here. I'm not being mean to you by saying that. There's an old, trite phrasing about people who mean well but just aren't thinking clearly. "White heart, empty head." I'll assume you're intentions are good, but your words are clear enough on the other part.

I don't 'need' my employees to have health insurance. If was a cost-effective aspect of our business, then maybe. I'm just flabbergasted at this notion that businesses should "do all you can for people". No. Businesses should do their business, and make their owners wealthier. There's no other reason to even be in business. If you make profit over and above the cost of doing "all you can for people", and it actually increases profits to do that, then you'd have a choice whether or not your business wants to be in the business of "doing all it can for people." Maybe you want your business to just stick to selling scrap metal or cookies or whatever. Maybe you don't want to be a jack of all trades for all men; perhaps you just like ginning cotton or sewing disposable garments. If so, that is what you should do.

chickflay. a perfect example. closed on sundays because its the right thing to do for families that work for them. huge money maker. has never hurt them. are they missing out on sales, yes. does it change the bottome line, yes. are they blessed for it yes.

[Shellie]

This thread reminds me of a story I heard once.....


While visiting his demoncrat friends, Jack asked their 6 year old daughter what she wanted to be when she grew up.

"President", she replied. Her parents just beamed.

"Well now, that is very noble," Jack answered, "What would you do first as president?"

"Well," she said, "I would make laws so that we could give food to the hungry, build houses for the homeless, and take all the sick people to doctors." At this point, her parents are about ready to bust the buttons from their shirt fronts.

So Jack tells her, "I've got an idea how you can help right now and you don't have to wait until you are all grown up."

The little girl was excited and listened attentively.

Jack says, "I'll take you over to my house and you can wash my car, mow and rake my lawn, pick up along the fence row and water my plants and flowers. When you are done, I will give you $100 and then I will take you downtown to where the poor hang out and you can give them the $100."

The little girl thought for a moment and said, "Why don't you just go pick up those people and let them do the work. Then you can just give them the money."

Jack looked at the previously proud parents and said, "I think your daughter will make a fine Republican president."

Jack was never invited back.

[dawgs10]

This thread reminds me of a story I heard once.....


While visiting his demoncrat friends, Jack asked their 6 year old daughter what she wanted to be when she grew up.

"President", she replied. Her parents just beamed.

"Well now, that is very noble," Jack answered, "What would you do first as president?"

"Well," she said, "I would make laws so that we could give food to the hungry, build houses for the homeless, and take all the sick people to doctors." At this point, her parents are about ready to bust the buttons from their shirt fronts.

So Jack tells her, "I've got an idea how you can help right now and you don't have to wait until you are all grown up."

The little girl was excited and listened attentively.

Jack says, "I'll take you over to my house and you can wash my car, mow and rake my lawn, pick up along the fence row and water my plants and flowers. When you are done, I will give you $100 and then I will take you downtown to where the poor hang out and you can give them the $100."

The little girl thought for a moment and said, "Why don't you just go pick up those people and let them do the work. Then you can just give them the money."

Jack looked at the previously proud parents and said, "I think your daughter will make a fine Republican president."



Jack was never invited back.

again, has nothing to do with providing health care for those that work and earn it. try another line of debate please.

[Shellie]

dawgs...

I did try another line of debate. You didn't answer.

The joke had nothing to do with the debate. Just revealing the back drop of the debate.

[dawgs10]

what line are you referring, i missed it.

[dawgs10]

well off to work hopefully helping people have a better life. i guess i get it, its about my checking account, my wallet, my lifestyle, and america dont care about others if it comes out of my pocket. i get it.. i dont feel that way. i guess that makes me an obama lover even when i dont agree with him. maybe it makes me far left. i dont know. the last i remember voting repub. o well.

[MacUser]

Contrary to popular belief.. you are not held hostage to any job. You are not forced to work in any situation you don't like.

You have the power to seek other better paying and/or rewarding jobs. You have the ability to relocate and move around as you see fit for your family.

Opportunity exists for you to better yourself via a plethora of means that I don't need to outline here.

[MacUser]

well off to work hopefully helping people have a better life. i guess i get it, its about my checking account, my wallet, my lifestyle, and america dont care about others if it comes out of my pocket. i get it.. i dont feel that way. i guess that makes me an obama lover even when i dont agree with him. maybe it makes me far left. i dont know. the last i remember voting repub. o well.

Removing monies by force from people that earn money and giving it to people whom don't earn it is WRONG. That is stealing.

If you feel the burden to empty your wallet then by all means go do it.. but do not support plans that do it to everyone by force. We are saying that Govt can not be the judge of fairness and will be nothing but corrupt, wasteful and fraudulent. Dare I say ACORN?

This to me is the very reason that Churches have become ineffective. When you used to be in trouble.. you went to the house of God. People gave and helped restore and you were set on the right path. Today they run to the Govt programs such as ACORN, Welfare that rewards deviant behavior and the destruction of the family.

We are in the mess because of an absence of LIGHT in the world. Not because of increased darkness. If a room is to BRIGHT.. you don't turn up the darkness... you turn down the LIGHT.

Think.

[Full Quiver]

Removing monies by force from people that earn money and giving it to people whom don't earn it is WRONG. That is stealing.

Amen and it lead folks like Washington, Jefferson, and Franklin to a Revolution.

[dolfan]

taking what i am saying in context colossians 4:1 would fit better than the scripture you used.Masters, give unto your servants that which is just and equal; knowing that ye also have a Master in heaven. those that cut work schedules to keep employees under the full time rate to avoid providing health care while giving others health care is wrong. it happens all the time. retail in general. Walmart, dollar stores, freds, drugstores, rite aid, cvs, are all guilty of this. they are told by their supervisors to not allow more than a percentage of people in each store to have full time status to avoid full time benefits. thats fact. thats wrong. thats what im saying. anything else is taking my statements out of context.

What is just depends on the market value of the labor. What is fair depends on the market value of the labor. The market is what a willing buyer (employer) and willing seller (employee) will agree on. We have employees right now that aren't worth $5 an hour but I have to pay them $7.25; it wouldn't do me much good to replace them because the pool of prospects has not proved any better as the people in these positions have churned somewhat (although, not too badly for a convenience store).

What you cite in Col. 4:1 is not actually "equal", but "equitable", meaning "fair". Fairness is in the bargain. It is also the prerogative of the master to determine how to allocate his costs. If he has a proportion of his revenue that he is willing to devote to health insurance benefits for x% of his employees because to do so makes business sense, that's the end of his obligation. He should not have to spend one cent more to insure X% plus 1, nor should he have to reduce coverage for x% to provide lesser coverage to x% plus 1.

What you are doing, Dawgs, is putting someone else over the decision making power of business that belongs only and solely to the business owner. That someone, in your argument, started out as government and now you've said, "Okay, then, God is the one to tell us, and here's Colossians 4:1." But, Colossians 4:1 is only a specific command for believers in a certain context (those who own businesses) to do what they already are to do (love one another). And, while it is absolutely necessary for believers to do justice and equity, it is NOT our place to tell business owners how to allocate their resources. It doesn't happen in a vacuum. What you propose is going to cost someone that you have no place telling them they have a duty to pay it! Fact is, you do not know what is the circumstance of each employer, what are the considerations in their decisions in how to allocate hours and labor costs. You are wholly ignorant of any one and especially every employer and why or how they ought to allocate their business expenses. It is easy to sit and toss out niceties about putting one more hour onto a worker's schedule so they can qualify for insurance coverage, but you have zero right to dictate that Colossians 4:1 means that the business ought absorb it. What you're doing totally ignores what Jesus said and does not for one second promote what Paul taught. Plus, you are condemning as wrong something that makes business sense for the business owner of whom Jesus Himself acknowledged that it is their right to do with their resources what they will.

[dolfan]

Dawgs, Chic-fil-a is closed on Sunday because its founder thought it necessary for his business to honor God.

"Our decision to close on Sunday was our way of honoring God and directing our attention to things more important than our business. If it took seven days to make a living with a restaurant, then we needed to be in some other line of work. Through the years, I have never wavered from that position," said the founder.

I love that! I think it's great! But, note what he said: "If it took seven days to make a living with a restaurant, then we needed to be in some other line of work." He made a personal choice, and as the business owner, imposed that choice on his business, as was his right. For Truett Cathy, the founder, being a fireman probably wouldn't be his occupation of choice, either. But, when that Chic-fil-a on Beltline Road in Decatur, Alabama burned to the ground about 2 years ago, who did they call first? The Decatur Fire Department. See, they know, too, the choice their company makes is the choice of their company. They didn't criticize Decatur Utilities for making people work at the water plant on Sundays to keep water flowing on Monday - Saturday, nor demand that a business they have no say-so over do something for the families of their employees.