"You lie!" -- Truth to power

[one love]

Scripture is for you personally. If you feel the need to give then do so. Stealing is a sin, is it not? What if you lived in a area that a mafia charged your business $400.00 a week for protection and to give to the poor. You have no choice, is that Christ like?
What about all the business's that donate to all kinds of charity ( and yes many do for tax right off's) what if they stop because of the tax increase?

Okay Brother we have a forum of believers here. PG owns the board. What if he said look we have some here that have no jobs, no healthcare and are struggling. So I PG am going to make you pay me 50% of all your income and I will distribute it how I see fit? If you do not pay it you will go to jail.....

How many times has a need been posted here and God moved and blessed families on this site? NO force. Giving is of the heart and you can not use scripture to back up a government plan of enormous spending. I am telling you that the thought that you should be punished for success will destroy this nation and hurt our children as they enter the work force.

IMHO doctors are under paid! What will happen when their pay is decreased? I assure you the BRILLIANT of minds that operate will not go to school for 10 years or more to live in debt for ever with NO chance of getting out of debt.

I want to make a lot of money... I work with that mind set. Greed? NO! Family, church and a better life one day for my children.
Everyone can NOT be financially equal because that does NOT reward ambition and hard work but rewards laziness and punishes those that work as hard as they can.

I owned my first business at 21 years old. I have always believed I could do whatever I put mind to with hard work. I did not plan on getting severe spinal problems. I did not plan on a doctor telling me to go on disability. But I refused to go on disability and had to re think my life to still make a good living and meet the goals I desire to have. If one day My body can NO longer work I will gladly take what I paid in but by the help of the Lord I plan to work hard and be more successful as time goes on.

I fear for my health care because of this government plan. I have been in business for a Long time and I ASSURE YOU that if a company that pays half the insurance for its employees can now let the government do it, they will. Then we are all stuck with this plan. Forget choice………..

[dawgs10]

Dawgs, Chic-fil-a is closed on Sunday because its founder thought it necessary for his business to honor God.

"Our decision to close on Sunday was our way of honoring God and directing our attention to things more important than our business. If it took seven days to make a living with a restaurant, then we needed to be in some other line of work. Through the years, I have never wavered from that position," said the founder.

I love that! I think it's great! But, note what he said: "If it took seven days to make a living with a restaurant, then we needed to be in some other line of work." He made a personal choice, and as the business owner, imposed that choice on his business, as was his right. For Truett Cathy, the founder, being a fireman probably wouldn't be his occupation of choice, either. But, when that Chic-fil-a on Beltline Road in Decatur, Alabama burned to the ground about 2 years ago, who did they call first? The Decatur Fire Department. See, they know, too, the choice their company makes is the choice of their company. They didn't criticize Decatur Utilities for making people work at the water plant on Sundays to keep water flowing on Monday - Saturday, nor demand that a business they have no say-so over do something for the families of their employees.

you have a opinion that your workers are only worth what they can do for you. which is a very narrow minded way of running a company. keep paying you employees 7.25 an hour. you will get 7.25 worth from your workers. i have ran a multi million dollar comp. for years. employed many more than you do. i know this, you pay someone 7.25 an hour you get what you pay for. when you draw that triangle upside down and run your company from the bottom up considering your people first and yourself last you will see a major transformation and there will be many folks working for you that you want to give raises to instead of complaining about having to pay them 7.25!!! and you will be a better person for it, ( even though i am sure you are a good person), but you will grow from the move. by the way i walked away from it and began to serve people instead of using people for 7.25 an hour for the rest of my life. i am much happier.

[dawgs10]

taking what i am saying in context colossians 4:1 would fit better than the scripture you used.Masters, give unto your servants that which is just and equal; knowing that ye also have a Master in heaven. those that cut work schedules to keep employees under the full time rate to avoid providing health care while giving others health care is wrong. it happens all the time. retail in general. Walmart, dollar stores, freds, drugstores, rite aid, cvs, are all guilty of this. they are told by their supervisors to not allow more than a percentage of people in each store to have full time status to avoid full time benefits. thats fact. thats wrong. thats what im saying. anything else is taking my statements out of context.

What is just depends on the market value of the labor. What is fair depends on the market value of the labor. The market is what a willing buyer (employer) and willing seller (employee) will agree on. We have employees right now that aren't worth $5 an hour but I have to pay them $7.25; it wouldn't do me much good to replace them because the pool of prospects has not proved any better as the people in these positions have churned somewhat (although, not too badly for a convenience store).

What you cite in Col. 4:1 is not actually "equal", but "equitable", meaning "fair". Fairness is in the bargain. It is also the prerogative of the master to determine how to allocate his costs. If he has a proportion of his revenue that he is willing to devote to health insurance benefits for x% of his employees because to do so makes business sense, that's the end of his obligation. He should not have to spend one cent more to insure X% plus 1, nor should he have to reduce coverage for x% to provide lesser coverage to x% plus 1.

What you are doing, Dawgs, is putting someone else over the decision making power of business that belongs only and solely to the business owner. That someone, in your argument, started out as government and now you've said, "Okay, then, God is the one to tell us, and here's Colossians 4:1." But, Colossians 4:1 is only a specific command for believers in a certain context (those who own businesses) to do what they already are to do (love one another). And, while it is absolutely necessary for believers to do justice and equity, it is NOT our place to tell business owners how to allocate their resources. It doesn't happen in a vacuum. What you propose is going to cost someone that you have no place telling them they have a duty to pay it! Fact is, you do not know what is the circumstance of each employer, what are the considerations in their decisions in how to allocate hours and labor costs. You are wholly ignorant of any one and especially every employer and why or how they ought to allocate their business expenses. It is easy to sit and toss out niceties about putting one more hour onto a worker's schedule so they can qualify for insurance coverage, but you have zero right to dictate that Colossians 4:1 means that the business ought absorb it. What you're doing totally ignores what Jesus said and does not for one second promote what Paul taught. Plus, you are condemning as wrong something that makes business sense for the business owner of whom Jesus Himself acknowledged that it is their right to do with their resources what they will.

so do you think it is moraly right to treat people in the manner i have spoken about in the top paragraph.

[oletimer]

Dawgs10 wrote;

keep paying you employees 7.25 an hour. you will get 7.25 worth from your workers.

Bull, You paid a $7.25 worker 10 or 12 dollors an hour and you still have a 7.25 worker at $10 or $12 price. I know because I've tried it. But if I hire somebody at 7.25 and they earn me money and pay their cost then I
don't mind paying them more.

i have ran a multi million dollar comp. for years. employed many more than you do

If this is so then you should know that a 7.25 hr worker is really costing about 12 to 15 hr.

[dolfan]

Dawgs, I don't contest your experience, I don't doubt your observations in your company. We run one of the largest, most successful convenience stores in north Alabama. We're in a town of about 5,000. We do more business than most of the top stores in Huntsville with a population that is more than 20 times greater than ours. Whatever it is we're doing, we're doing something right. Our vendors, including Coca Cola, Phillip Morris, RJ Reynolds, Pepsi and Lays, all tell us the same thing --- we're in the top 10 c-stores. Gatorade/Quaker -- same thing.

Now, my opinion is what the opinion is of most businesses, that labor is a commodity. You pay for it what it adds to your bottom line. We have people that we pay well in excess of minimum wage. They earn it. They make our store better, more profitable, and our lives easier to boot. We have some that we pay minimum wage that are on the cusp of being fired, that is if they bother to show up long enough to get fired.

As to your question, though, about whether I view it as moral that companies would keep someone at 34 hours to prevent them from having 35 hours and thus, under their own policies, qualify for health insurance benefits. I've thought about that tonight quite a bit. I've tried to see it from your perspective. And, here's where I come down on it: It is not immoral.

Business decisions are best when they are based on honesty, full information, and freedom. Honesty requires truthfulness, full information promotes educated decision making and freedom is the ultimate business "good" because people do not act under compulsion. These three values or points promote business that works and keeps people productive.

When a business makes a decision to draw a line somewhere, to limit the allocation of its resources on Matter #1, and to devote more to Matter #25, the only way it doesn't make good business sense is if doing so harms its bottom line in the short run and in the long run. Now, obviously, you can trade those fortunes off against each other at times, and you do it even if you don't realize it. The business exists for the sole purpose of enriching its stakeholders. It may adopt any number of means and attitudes about people, neighborliness, etc., but its heartbeat is a single one and that is shareholder satisfaction. Shareholders are satisfied with nice dividend income, higher share value. A perfectly nice and neighborly company may never pay dividends and may have abysmal share value and soon it won't even employ anyone so it isn't much use as a nice, neighborly anything for anyone. A totally horrid company may succeed and keep shareholders happy, but destroy its labor with morale-lowering attitudes, poor leadership training, and any number of daily slights that make fodder for things like Dilbert and "The Office", or whatever.

Which of these businesses is "better"? The one that lives on. From a business perspective, that's the only answer. There is no redemption of a dead business, no eternal life for it. No one builds memorials to the nice small business person that failed. NFIB, NASE, and other small business oriented groups do not have museums with cases of memorabilia, no scholarly journals, no honorary titles or designations for the small business that couldn't.

The business remains the property of the business owner, the stakeholder, who is free to do with it as he pleases (in theory). I can't conclude any other but that your example is an example of a soundly moral business decision inasmuch as business morals apply. To thrust on that business a set of moral imperatives that it is not expected to nor can truly answer is to fly in the space where fairy tales come from. And, I really do believe that your view on the "deserve" v. "greed" is precisely in that territory.

[dolfan]

And, let me add this -- what you are really saying is that someone ought to make them do what you call 'right'. That someone is government. It still goes back to government control of private business, private life, private industry. Government has no business in it.

[dawgs10]

And, let me add this -- what you are really saying is that someone ought to make them do what you call 'right'. That someone is government. It still goes back to government control of private business, private life, private industry. Government has no business in it.

after working someone a 12-18 hour day to ring a register and sending them home an hour before overtime is wrong no matter how you word it or explain it. calling someone in to work on a day off then sending them home the next day to keep from labeling them full time is wrong and if we cant see that there must be a way to regulate it. unions, gov. whatever it takes to keep the owners and stockholders from taken advantage of the workers. if we dont want the gov. involved we should make strides to be a family friendly company, because its going to happen with or without obama. You will pay people much more than 7.25 an hour if you offer a family friendly company. i know we cant talk comp. owners into opening their wallets to give people more if they dont have to. people are driven by money and more time away from the work place. quility time. sat. night time, sunday morning time. health care, raises, sick time. all of these things make employes better workers. proven fact.

[dawgs10]

oletimer, i know it cost 10-12 thousand dollars for every person you turn over in a large comp. so it would make more sense to pay people more and to offer health care to keep people rather than having a 70-80% yearly turn over rate.

[Shellie]

dawgs wrote:

keep paying you employees 7.25 an hour. you will get 7.25 worth from your workers.

Pay amount does not make a hard worker. Upbringing and character make a hard worker.

A person is either a worker or he's not.

In my lifetime, I've made as much as $30 an hour and as little as $3 an hour. I've always given the same amount of effort regardless of what I was making an hour.

[MacUser]

dawgs wrote:

keep paying you employees 7.25 an hour. you will get 7.25 worth from your workers.

Pay amount does not make a hard worker. Upbringing and character make a hard worker.

A person is either a worker or he's not.

In my lifetime, I've made as much as $30 an hour and as little as $3 an hour. I've always given the same amount of effort regardless of what I was making an hour.

BRAVO!! It's called your work ethic!!! Your common sense is astounding and refreshing.

Dawgs.. taking something from someone else by force is STEALING. If it is freely given that is a gift. Which are you wanting?

[MacUser]

oletimer, i know it cost 10-12 thousand dollars for every person you turn over in a large comp.

An ineffective worker can cost untold undocumented revenue loss.

make more sense to pay people more and to offer health care to keep people rather than having a 70-80% yearly turn over rate.

How much $$$ is more to you? What is your cash amount ideal that everybody should make? Curious. 25G, 35G, 50G, 75G, 100G?

[dawgs10]

dawgs wrote:

keep paying you employees 7.25 an hour. you will get 7.25 worth from your workers.

Pay amount does not make a hard worker. Upbringing and character make a hard worker.

A person is either a worker or he's not.

In my lifetime, I've made as much as $30 an hour and as little as $3 an hour. I've always given the same amount of effort regardless of what I was making an hour.

although that line of thinking is true, it is not correct. it just is simply not the work force in the united states of america. if someone is making minium wage they will give minium wage effert. i hope i am the same way you are. its the right thing to do, to give 100% in everything you do, but it does not happen. when given a chance to raise up to the pay people do and it works. 15 years of management experience of all age group gives me this point of view and this view is the world we live in, like it or not. but pay is just a pieace of the puzzle. offering health care and family time (sick, or personal time) makes people happy, and happy workers are good workers. a kind answer turns away wrath. offering people a better life makes people better. sure they should work for it in most cases, and give a 100% when they do. if they believe in what they are doing and what you are doing for them they will do for you. i dont know why people want to ignore the idea of do unto others in business. if companies will hold out a hand they will be blessed. small owners hold out a hand your company will be more profitable than ever before.

[dawgs10]

dawgs wrote:

keep paying you employees 7.25 an hour. you will get 7.25 worth from your workers.

Pay amount does not make a hard worker. Upbringing and character make a hard worker.

A person is either a worker or he's not.

In my lifetime, I've made as much as $30 an hour and as little as $3 an hour. I've always given the same amount of effort regardless of what I was making an hour.

BRAVO!! It's called your work ethic!!! Your common sense is astounding and refreshing.

Dawgs.. taking something from someone else by force is STEALING. If it is freely given that is a gift. Which are you wanting?

either you can not or not taking the time to read. i have said those that are working or earning. read, think and then debate.

[dawgs10]

oletimer, i know it cost 10-12 thousand dollars for every person you turn over in a large comp.

An ineffective worker can cost untold undocumented revenue loss.

make more sense to pay people more and to offer health care to keep people rather than having a 70-80% yearly turn over rate.

How much $$$ is more to you? What is your cash amount ideal that everybody should make? Curious. 25G, 35G, 50G, 75G, 100G?

cost of living plus 20% sounds good. what is average in your area plus enough to live a life outside of the work place. happy people make good workers. no more turnover. experienced people that know your customer and know thier job that you are paying for.

[pastorables]

although that line of thinking is true, it is not correct. it just is simply not the work force in the united states of america. if someone is making minium wage they will give minium wage effert.

Wow. You must live in a utopian world. I have also owned businesses and employed workers and have never found the work ethic to be increased by raises and bonuses. I could share much about my thoughts on business, but this isn't the time or place.

To the contrary, I always received the "I was owed that and want more" attitude, but never witnessed an increase in production for my business. Likewise, the employees who offered more due to their own work ethic were rewarded.

pa