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dawgs10
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Postby dawgs10 » September 17th, 2009, 5:35 am

MacUser wrote:
dawgs10 wrote:
14-15. If anyone refuses to obey our clear command written in this letter, don't let him get by with it. Point out such a person and refuse to subsidize his freeloading. Maybe then he'll think twice. But don't treat him as an enemy. Sit him down and talk about the problem as someone who cares.


all true and not being debated. we are talking about people that are working and being misstreated which can be found in col. paul wrote that to.


Ahh.. but first we have to define what is freeloading? Refusing to Subsidize it also. Refusing to obey a clear command to work... etc.

Would taking money from some by force and giving it to some else that didn't earn it.. be FREELOADING? If you are being forced.. is that stealing or at it's very least.. subsidizing?

We have to establish these concepts and not be afraid to point them out where ever we find them.


offering people healthcare is neither. its just decent.

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MacUser
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Postby MacUser » September 17th, 2009, 5:47 am

dawgs10 wrote:
MacUser wrote:
dawgs10 wrote:
14-15. If anyone refuses to obey our clear command written in this letter, don't let him get by with it. Point out such a person and refuse to subsidize his freeloading. Maybe then he'll think twice. But don't treat him as an enemy. Sit him down and talk about the problem as someone who cares.


all true and not being debated. we are talking about people that are working and being misstreated which can be found in col. paul wrote that to.


Ahh.. but first we have to define what is freeloading? Refusing to Subsidize it also. Refusing to obey a clear command to work... etc.

Would taking money from some by force and giving it to some else that didn't earn it.. be FREELOADING? If you are being forced.. is that stealing or at it's very least.. subsidizing?

We have to establish these concepts and not be afraid to point them out where ever we find them.


offering people healthcare is neither. its just decent.


What is this nanny state mentality? Stealing is ok... if done for good? Do the ends justify the means? These people are adults. If they want insurance.. on the car, boat, motorcycle, ipod, iphone, computer, jewelry, healthcare

GO BUY IT!!!

Adjust your lifestyle to what you want. Don't buy thousands of dollars worth of modern accessories and claim you can't afford [insert your insurance here]

Being responsible for your OWN personal actions is just decent and liberating.
Chris -

... Behold, the Lamb of God, that taketh away the sin of the world!
John 1:29

dawgs10
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Postby dawgs10 » September 17th, 2009, 5:57 am

MacUser wrote:
dawgs10 wrote:
MacUser wrote:
dawgs10 wrote:
14-15. If anyone refuses to obey our clear command written in this letter, don't let him get by with it. Point out such a person and refuse to subsidize his freeloading. Maybe then he'll think twice. But don't treat him as an enemy. Sit him down and talk about the problem as someone who cares.


all true and not being debated. we are talking about people that are working and being misstreated which can be found in col. paul wrote that to.


Ahh.. but first we have to define what is freeloading? Refusing to Subsidize it also. Refusing to obey a clear command to work... etc.

Would taking money from some by force and giving it to some else that didn't earn it.. be FREELOADING? If you are being forced.. is that stealing or at it's very least.. subsidizing?

We have to establish these concepts and not be afraid to point them out where ever we find them.


offering people healthcare is neither. its just decent.


What is this nanny state mentality? Stealing is ok... if done for good? Do the ends justify the means? These people are adults. If they want insurance.. on the car, boat, motorcycle, ipod, iphone, computer, jewelry, healthcare

GO BUY IT!!!

Adjust your lifestyle to what you want. Don't buy thousands of dollars worth of modern accessories and claim you can't afford [insert your insurance here]

Being responsible for your OWN personal actions is just decent and liberating.


again, an assumption is being made that everyone that needs health care and working two parttime jobs must be watefull. this is not the case. but is sterotyping.

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Postby Shellie » September 17th, 2009, 6:19 am

dawgs wrote:

offering people healthcare is neither. its just decent.


So Dawgs...how much each week do you set aside from your paycheck to give to someone so they can go to the doctor?
There never was a horse that couldn't be rode and there never was a cowboy that couldn't be throwed.

dawgs10
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Postby dawgs10 » September 17th, 2009, 6:24 am

i give more from my paycheck than just the money. i have taken a cut in pay of half so that i can spend more time in ministry. helping people. if the federal gov. wanted 10 dollars a week from me so that someone can have health care i would do it. not because i am better than anyone. its because i am a part of a country that should care about each other. at church, work, the streets, pay day, and any day.

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MacUser
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Postby MacUser » September 17th, 2009, 6:27 am

dawgs10 wrote:again, an assumption is being made that everyone that needs health care and working two parttime jobs must be watefull. this is not the case. but is sterotyping.


Again, you are making an assumption that these few people can't seek other employment. They are somehow LOCKED into life's doomed cycle. These people make decisions to remain where they are.

It's indecent to steal, subsidize, allow to freeload from all to give to a few that will not take personal responsibility to better themselves. Paul is clear on that.
Chris -



... Behold, the Lamb of God, that taketh away the sin of the world!

John 1:29

dawgs10
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Postby dawgs10 » September 17th, 2009, 6:33 am

MacUser wrote:
dawgs10 wrote:again, an assumption is being made that everyone that needs health care and working two parttime jobs must be watefull. this is not the case. but is sterotyping.


Again, you are making an assumption that these few people can't seek other employment. They are somehow LOCKED into life's doomed cycle. These people make decisions to remain where they are.

It's indecent to steal, subsidize, allow to freeload from all to give to a few that will not take personal responsibility to better themselves. Paul is clear on that.


the bottom line is your saying dont take my money because its mine. even if it helps someone working 3 parttime jobs at 90 hours a week get health care. there is no compassion in that. no matter how you look at it.

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MacUser
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Postby MacUser » September 17th, 2009, 6:53 am

dawgs10 wrote:the bottom line is your saying dont take my money because its mine. even if it helps someone working 3 parttime jobs at 90 hours a week get health care. there is no compassion in that. no matter how you look at it.



No AGAIN.. this is what I am saying personally to you because I care about your thinking process.

2 Thessalonians 3
3. Don't you remember the rule we had when we lived with you? "If you don't work, you don't eat." And now we're getting reports that a bunch of lazy good-for-nothings are taking advantage of you. This must not be tolerated. We command them to get to work immediately—no excuses, no arguments—and earn their own keep. Friends, don't slack off in doing your duty.

14-15. If anyone refuses to obey our clear command written in this letter, don't let him get by with it. Point out such a person and refuse to subsidize his freeloading. Maybe then he'll think twice. But don't treat him as an enemy. Sit him down and talk about the problem as someone who cares.


Related to taking someone else's money out of compassion.. that is STEALING. Do we need to debate stealing???

Again, those union websites are leading you down the wrong path.
Chris -



... Behold, the Lamb of God, that taketh away the sin of the world!

John 1:29

dawgs10
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Postby dawgs10 » September 17th, 2009, 7:01 am

MacUser wrote:
dawgs10 wrote:the bottom line is your saying dont take my money because its mine. even if it helps someone working 3 parttime jobs at 90 hours a week get health care. there is no compassion in that. no matter how you look at it.



No AGAIN.. this is what I am saying personally to you because I care about your thinking process.

2 Thessalonians 3
3. Don't you remember the rule we had when we lived with you? "If you don't work, you don't eat." And now we're getting reports that a bunch of lazy good-for-nothings are taking advantage of you. This must not be tolerated. We command them to get to work immediately—no excuses, no arguments—and earn their own keep. Friends, don't slack off in doing your duty.

14-15. If anyone refuses to obey our clear command written in this letter, don't let him get by with it. Point out such a person and refuse to subsidize his freeloading. Maybe then he'll think twice. But don't treat him as an enemy. Sit him down and talk about the problem as someone who cares.


Related to taking someone else's money out of compassion.. that is STEALING. Do we need to debate stealing???

Again, those union websites are leading you down the wrong path.


and again these people are working but because of the system that men have set up they are being shut out of healthcare and benefits. dont have anything to do with unions. its compassion for those trying to do the right thing. its not stealing if your heart is in the right place and you give it away.

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Postby dolfan » September 17th, 2009, 7:43 am

They're not being shut out of anything. How much money do these people -- that you say are shut out of health care -- spend on non-essential things? And, how many of them who are being "shut out" would spend on health care insurance if, Wal-Mart for example, paid them more money? How much of their last raise was set aside toward health care or health insurance?

What you insist upon is that employers must do this for employees because they can't or won't do it for themselves AND that employers must be REQUIRED to do it. That's not compassion, it is compulsion. It is antithetical to American liberty and usurps to the federal government authority that it is not given in the Constitution (at least as it was applied prior to 1937 and FDR's thuggish court-packing threats). Government compulsion to redistribute wealth in order to govern the personal choices of its citizens and to force a standard of welfare upon them that they would not otherwise inure to themselves is socialism. It is no better than Chinese communism, no better than Russian communism. There was a time in this nation when to hold such views as yours would put you in stead with the likes of Gus Hall and Angela Davis, former Communist Party USA leaders and presidential candidates. Hall said in 1996 that, "Socialism in America will come through the ballot box." Well, he was wrong. Now it is being advocated also by the church if we're to hear your plaintive cry that we have a duty before God to provide for every American's health care.

If people want health care and are able to work, then they can buy their own coverage. The biggest obstacle to it is cost. Cost being the beast that it is, it can be reduced substantially in a number of ways other than setting up a government program to wastefully and corruptly mismanage about 1/5 or more of our GDP, than to confiscate private wealth against the the will of those who own and create it, than to bureaucratically fumble the micromanagement of personal conduct and private choice and desires. If this bill or anything remotely like it, including ANY tax on health care benefits or ANY requirement to get insured or get penalized/fined, passes and becomes law, then the era of liberty in our nation is over. This is the last wall between individual liberty and governmental power. Once breached, we're history.

That is precisely why I call this matter a war. It is a just war, one that grave sacrifices may be necessary to wage, or else we will just accept that we are no longer our own masters but are serfs to the federal government and its bureaucrats and those who gain the most power from its actions.
Human government bears the same relation to hell as the church bears to heaven. (David Lipscomb, On Civil Government, 72).

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Postby MacUser » September 17th, 2009, 9:36 am

dawgs10 wrote:and again these people are working but because of the system that men have set up they are being shut out of healthcare and benefits. dont have anything to do with unions. its compassion for those trying to do the right thing. its not stealing if your heart is in the right place and you give it away.


Go back to the principles above we agreed and established. Paul is clear as it relates. Giving is wonderful.. but this isn't about that. Compassion is wonderful.. but this isn't about that. It's about Govt. taking (removing by force or threat ) what's not yours and that is wrong.

Govt. can not be the entity whom extends compassion and giving.. as it does so at the expense of others ( insert: Our kids, grandkids and great great grandkids will be paying for this ). It is corrupt & bankrupt.

It's always amazing how you quickly blame criminal large businesses for systematically harming it's employees (whom have a CHOICE to leave).. yet it's perfectly fine.. lauded aloud.. for the GOVT to steal and invent laws that punish entire generations !!!! ( whom have NO CHOICE - can't opt out. )

What legacy will you leave for the future generation? You got all you could get while the fun lasted or you were a voice of reason in the chaos?
Chris -



... Behold, the Lamb of God, that taketh away the sin of the world!

John 1:29

dawgs10
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Postby dawgs10 » September 17th, 2009, 1:10 pm

dolfan wrote:They're not being shut out of anything. How much money do these people -- that you say are shut out of health care -- spend on non-essential things? And, how many of them who are being "shut out" would spend on health care insurance if, Wal-Mart for example, paid them more money? How much of their last raise was set aside toward health care or health insurance?

What you insist upon is that employers must do this for employees because they can't or won't do it for themselves AND that employers must be REQUIRED to do it. That's not compassion, it is compulsion. It is antithetical to American liberty and usurps to the federal government authority that it is not given in the Constitution (at least as it was applied prior to 1937 and FDR's thuggish court-packing threats). Government compulsion to redistribute wealth in order to govern the personal choices of its citizens and to force a standard of welfare upon them that they would not otherwise inure to themselves is socialism. It is no better than Chinese communism, no better than Russian communism. There was a time in this nation when to hold such views as yours would put you in stead with the likes of Gus Hall and Angela Davis, former Communist Party USA leaders and presidential candidates. Hall said in 1996 that, "Socialism in America will come through the ballot box." Well, he was wrong. Now it is being advocated also by the church if we're to hear your plaintive cry that we have a duty before God to provide for every American's health care.

If people want health care and are able to work, then they can buy their own coverage. The biggest obstacle to it is cost. Cost being the beast that it is, it can be reduced substantially in a number of ways other than setting up a government program to wastefully and corruptly mismanage about 1/5 or more of our GDP, than to confiscate private wealth against the the will of those who own and create it, than to bureaucratically fumble the micromanagement of personal conduct and private choice and desires. If this bill or anything remotely like it, including ANY tax on health care benefits or ANY requirement to get insured or get penalized/fined, passes and becomes law, then the era of liberty in our nation is over. This is the last wall between individual liberty and governmental power. Once breached, we're history.

That is precisely why I call this matter a war. It is a just war, one that grave sacrifices may be necessary to wage, or else we will just accept that we are no longer our own masters but are serfs to the federal government and its bureaucrats and those who gain the most power from its actions.


again you are assuming that people wast money and for that they dont have healthcare. you do have a choice. and you have chosen to keep your money instead of helping people get healthcare.

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Postby dolfan » September 17th, 2009, 2:38 pm

Okay, Dawgs. I'll give this much to you: it is a choice. When government gets through, it won't be. If that is your vision of a better America, and it is, then you have very little in common with our founders.
Human government bears the same relation to hell as the church bears to heaven. (David Lipscomb, On Civil Government, 72).

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Postby pastorables » September 17th, 2009, 3:56 pm

dawgs10 wrote:by answering a clip of what i wrote is no answer at all.


Actually, it is proper protocol to clip the part you are directly responding to for emphasis. I did nothing to manipulate your thought process.

dawgs10 wrote:
and the fact is happy workers make good workers and pay is not the only part of the whole.


Happy workers make good workers? :roll: :lol: That's preposterous! I had workers that I allowed to sit around daily and study their college materials, etc... This made them happy, but not better workers for my company. To the contrary, it increased my own work load many times. In a nutshell, I paid them and did their work for them many a day.

pa
"He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose."Jim Elliot - Missionary Martyr

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dawgs10
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Postby dawgs10 » September 18th, 2009, 2:15 am

pastorables wrote:
dawgs10 wrote:by answering a clip of what i wrote is no answer at all.


Actually, it is proper protocol to clip the part you are directly responding to for emphasis. I did nothing to manipulate your thought process.

dawgs10 wrote:
and the fact is happy workers make good workers and pay is not the only part of the whole.


Happy workers make good workers? :roll: :lol: That's preposterous! I had workers that I allowed to sit around daily and study their college materials, etc... This made them happy, but not better workers for my company. To the contrary, it increased my own work load many times. In a nutshell, I paid them and did their work for them many a day.

pa


if someone is using you workplace for a place to hang out while they are in school is one thing. im not talking about those people. i would rather have a single mother working for me than a student any day. but i would pay her for the work she did and not lump her into to the same crowd. when i interviewed students i told them in the beginning. that your life will not effect my work place or i will find someone else. most of them dont need health care. they get it thru daddy anyway. students most of the time are the worst employee a place can have. i think maybe the issue is we dont know the people i am advocating for.


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