Baptized Since Believing?

[paul]

"Have you receive the Holy Ghost since ye BELIEVED?"
Believed what?

I received the indwelling of the Holy Spirit when I believed

Paul just curious are you saying that the baptism of the holy ghost happens at repentance? If so what signifies this baptism , if anything?

Thanks.

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Let me share the following and I am sure your question will be answered:

Often when we speak of the Spirit we use images, i.e. dove, fire, wind, and oil. But we know that the Spirit is a person, the third part of the Trinity. We also must acknowledge that most frequently the Spirit is spoken in terms of agency, that is the Spirit is the agent of God's activity. The Holy Spirit is not solely the act of speaking in tongues. Paul in his writings shows how often the spirit as an agent finds personal expression.

Sanctifying work of the Spirit 2Thess 2:13
Accompanying Joy 1Thess 1:6
Revelation from the Spirit 1Cor 2:10
Power of the Spirit 1Thess 1:5
Prophetic speach speaking in Tongues
directly by speaking from the Spirit 1Cor 12:3 14:2, 16
Putting to death Sinful practices Rom 8:13
To be strengthened by the Spirit Eph 3:16
Believers served by the Spirit Phil 3:3
Loved by the Spirit Col 1:8
Sealed by the Spirit Eph 1:13 ( this verse is not a reference to OSAS which is a great misinterpretation)
We walk and live by the Spirit Gal 5:16,25 This is for all believers even those who do not speak in tongues
Believers are saved through the washing by the Spirit, whom God poured out upon them Titus 3:5

[Pastorbps]

Nope, didn't answer it.

[Pastor Gary]

Nope, didn't answer it.

The Trinity is a TRI-UNITY. One cannot receive Christ without also receiving the Spirit and the Father, can they?

[paul]

Nope, didn't answer it.

Paul three times distinguishes believers from nonbelilevers in terms of the former having the Spirit, while the latter do not. 1Cor 2:6-16; 1Cor 12:3 Rom 8:9

Paul plainly states in Rom 8:9 " if anyone does not have the Spirit, that person does not belong to Christ at all." In Galatians paul makes it clear, whatever else, the new convert are spirit people. They have come to life by the life giving spirit Gal 5:25 2Cor 3:3, 6 they walk by the spirit, and they are led by the Spirit. For Paul, therefore, to "get saved" means first of all to "receive the Spirit"

[Poimen]

Paul three times distinguishes believers from nonbelilevers in terms of the former having the Spirit, while the latter do not. 1Cor 2:6-16; 1Cor 12:3 Rom 8:9

Paul plainly states in Rom 8:9 " if anyone does not have the Spirit, that person does not belong to Christ at all." In Galatians paul makes it clear, whatever else, the new convert are spirit people. They have come to life by the life giving spirit Gal 5:25 2Cor 3:3, 6 they walk by the spirit, and they are led by the Spirit. For Paul, therefore, to "get saved" means first of all to "receive the Spirit"

I agree.

And, for the record, before someone says that means I am denying the baptism with the Holy Ghost, that certainly doesn't mean that. I do not deny a post conversion experience with the Spirit. Because one believes all converts are indwelt of the Spirit doesn't necessarily mean one does NOT believe in Spirit Baptism as a distinct experience.

Now, I am willing to adjust my understanding as I grow in knowledge of the truth and walk in the light, but as it is, I accept both a reception of the Spirit in conversion, and a post-conversion Spirit baptism.

[Poimen]

The Trinity is a TRI-UNITY. One cannot receive Christ without also receiving the Spirit and the Father, can they?

Nice!

Simple. Straightforward. Sound.

In fact, to deny reception of the Spirit at conversion is tantamount to a denial of the Trinity. For if one does not receive the Spirit when they receive Christ then the persons of the triune God CAN be divided, and we have at best 2 gods, one a bi-unity of the Father and Son, and one the Holy Ghost -- not one triune God. Worse still, tri-theism, where all three divine personages can be separated one from the other -- making 3 gods, not 1 God (albeit in 3 persons) In truth, and worst of all, any such notion of division and we are left with a false god, one not revealed in Scripture, which is not God at all.

Excellent point, PG! You are waxing eloquent in your seemingly unsophisticated way.

[Pastorbps]

Oh I've got that. I know you receive the Holy Spirit when you believe. I just don't believe you are "filled with the Spirit" when you believe. I took the Acts 19 question Paul asked in the context of Acts 8 where the Samaritans believed and were baptized and then Peter & John came up and laid hands on them to receive the Holy Ghost. The question I have had for those who don't believe in a subsequent "infilling" is "Do you baptize people who are not Christians?" Why would Phillip baptize people he knew weren't converts since he knew they had not received the Holy Ghost and, as has been pointed out here, one is not a convert without the working of the Holy Spirit?

[paul]

Oh I've got that. I know you receive the Holy Spirit when you believe. I just don't believe you are "filled with the Spirit" when you believe.

Your statement begs the question, if you receive the Holy Spirit when you are saved but you are not filled, how much of the Holy Spirit do you Receive?

Is it 1/4 or 1/2 or possibly 3/4 ? Or is it when one speaks in tongues?

[Pastorbps]

You still didn't answer my question. Why would Phillip baptize people who weren't converts?

The question is not a matter of quantity but of how the Holy Spirit works. In one instance He works to regenerate and in another He works to fill and empower.
Here is my example.
I once visited a friend who had a gas heater attached to a wall. The heater was manufactured to produce heat but it wasn't operational. I watched my friend light the pilot light. When he did there was a small flame which let him know the fuel was flowing and heater was operational. Even though the pilot light was lit and the heater gave evidence to being operational, it was far from doing what it was capable of doing or what it was designed to do. I then watched my friend turn the knob and in a moment the whole grid lit up and you could see the glow and feel the warmth starting to fill the room and warm all of those around. This is what it was designed to do. When a person is Born of the Spirit, the pilot light is lit. The person is alive unto God. The potential is present. You can even fill some warmth. I don't believe that is all there is to it. I believe there is a moment in which the knob is turned and the person explodes with power and becomes an empowered instrument to serve others.
Unfortunately, we as Pentecostals confuse people sometimes because we only have an experience and soon we turn the knob down ("Quench not the Spirit"). Soon we are back to pilot light status - still operational but far from what we were re-created to do.

You seem to believe all converts are filled with the Holy Spirit. I believe they are re-created by the Holy Spirit but they may be filled with the Holy Spirit at a later time.

[paul]

"Pastorbps "

I believe they are re-created by the Holy Spirit but they may be filled with the Holy Spirit at a later time.

That would be in direct conflict with Rom 8:9-11

Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.


Rom 8:10 And if Christ [be] in you, the body [is] dead because of sin; but the Spirit [is] life because of righteousness.


Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you

[Pastorbps]

Still haven't answered my question and what conflict do you see? I said the Holy Spirit is present in the heart of the convert but does that mean they have been FILLED with the Spirit?

[paul]

Still haven't answered my question and what conflict do you see? I said the Holy Spirit is present in the heart of the convert but does that mean they have been FILLED with the Spirit?

If the Person of the Holy Spirit is present in the Heartof a believer, how can one not be filled ? Unless at conversion you only receive a part of the Holy Spirit and the balance at the receiving of tongues. That simply does not compute with scriptures. Now I do remember some heated discussion concerning the Holy Spirit vs the Holy Ghost and Fire. But that qould be a quartet not a trio.

I will look more closely at your question and give you my understanding shortly.

[Poimen]

"Have you receive the Holy Ghost since ye BELIEVED?"
Believed what?

Believe John's message to repent because Messiah was soon appearing and would baptize with the Holy Ghost.

Is that not at least a fair and valid deduction based on the passage's surrounding content and context?

[oletimer]

Seems like to me that some are trying to put God in a “box” with the different God/gods ideal/s. Is the Holy Ghost the Spirit of Christ or the Spirit of God? Then is there a different?
Why did Christ have to go away for His Spirit to enter our souls? And just what is the Spirit of Christ. Is it/He a person as we see the Father ,Son And the Holy Ghost, or is it the likeness of Christ is our life that alouds us to reflect Christ in our life? Why wait for Him to come if He is already here?

I notice that the word Spirit and spirit in verse John 4:24 have the same Greek word definition yet are given in a greater and lesser sense.

Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

I for one find it hard to see the spirit of Christ as equate to the Holy Ghost as being the same in the same sense of the word. If it were then why would He have them that are saved to wait for the Holy Ghost.


Ac 1:4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.
Ac 1:5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
Ac 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
Ac 1:7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
Ac 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
Ac 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

Lu 24:49 And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.


Joh 16:5 But now I go my way to him that sent me; and none of you asketh me, Whither goest thou?
Joh 16:6 But because I have said these things unto you, sorrow hath filled your heart.
Joh 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
Joh 16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
Joh 16:9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;
Joh 16:10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
Joh 16:11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.
Joh 16:12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
Joh 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
Joh 16:14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
Joh 16:15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
Joh 16:16 A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me, because I go to the Father.

Then if the Holy Ghost is the same as the Spirit of Christ then why did Christ refer to the Holy Ghost as a person?

Then going back to Acts the 8th Chapter if the save receive the Holy Ghost at the point of
salvation then why was it necessary for Peter and John to go all that far as they most likely had to walk to make that trip?

Ac 8:14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:
Ac 8:15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
Ac 8:16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
Ac 8:17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.

My two cents:

[oletimer]

Poimen

Pastorbps wrote:
"Have you receive the Holy Ghost since ye BELIEVED?"
Believed what?

Believe John's message to repent because Messiah was soon appearing and would baptize with the Holy Ghost.

Is that not at least a fair and valid deduction based on the passage's surrounding content and context?
Poimen
Bro. Christopher

The only problem with that is that no where you will read where that He baptise any one with the Holy Ghost and as far as it goes, with water either.

What He says is that He will have to leave for the Holy Ghost to come.