Baptized Since Believing?

[Pastorbps]

Paul:
I still don't think it is about quantity. I think it is about how He is working in the believer.

Interesting predicament. Romans 8:9b says "...Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his" and yet, Phillip knew the people in Samaria had not received the Holy Spirit, therefore they were "none of His," and he still baptized them. Why would he baptize people who were "none of His?"
If being "Born of the Spirit" and being "Filled with the Spirit" are the same then it is obvious Phillip knew they had not been "Born of the Spirit" and yet he baptized them.
Why didn't he wait for Peter and John to lay hands on them to receive the Holy Spirit BEFORE he baptized them?
What happened when Peter and John did lay hands on them which let them know it had happened and shouldn't all conversion experiences be that noticeable?

Since you don't believe the Holy Spirit can be in a person without FILLING that person then I would assume you believe that every believer is walking around full of the Holy Ghost.

[pastorables]

Personally, I believe that we are filled with the Holy Ghost (Holy Spirit) multiple times. Notice in Acts 2:4 ...they were all filled with the Holy Ghost,... and then again in Acts 4:31 ...they were all filled with the Holy Ghost (Holy Spirit),...

Those who prayed and were filled with the Holy Ghost in Acts 4:31 included many of the same believers who were filled in Acts 2:4.

Based upon the preceding, I would see the Spirit of Christ received at salvation (Romans as a different operation of the Spirit and more specific to the new birth, unless we are prepared to consider that we are actually born again multiple times. The Spirit of Christ fills us at salvation, but the Spirit continues to fill us through the gift of Spirit baptism multiple times.

Thoughts?

pa

[paul]

Pastorbps

Paul:
Since you don't believe the Holy Spirit can be in a person without FILLING that person then I would assume you believe that every believer is walking around full of the Holy Ghost.

Yes. I also notice that you have used Holy Spirit coming into ones life and then the phrase of being filled with the Holy Ghost.

This gives the impression that the two are different in nature, which I am sure is not your intent. I do believe in tongues, and I believe that it is a manifestation of the Spirit. I believe that every believer who has confessed Christ, has within them the presence of the Holy Spirit in His fullness, and is capable of speaking in tongues and being used in any of the giftings.

Unfortunately many have never been taught that it is within them to exercise.

[oletimer]

Paul wrote:

I believe that every believer who has confessed Christ, has within them the presence of the Holy Spirit in His fullness, and is capable of speaking in tongues and being used in any of the giftings.

And the UPC said AMAN

[paul]

Paul wrote:

I believe that every believer who has confessed Christ, has within them the presence of the Holy Spirit in His fullness, and is capable of speaking in tongues and being used in any of the giftings.

And the UPC said AMAN

Because the pentecostal and charismatics have so identified the Filling of the Holy Spirit with speaking in tongues, we have missed about 99.9% of the purpose of the Holy Spirit being given to the Believer and the church.

[Pastorbps]

Paul:
I use Holy Spirit and Holy Ghost interchangeably not because I believe they are different. Sorry for any confusion.

[Pastorbps]

Another problem with the infilling being the same as being Born of the Spirit is found in Acts 19:5-6 itself. Paul baptized the Ephesians in water and then laid hands on them to receive the Holy Ghost. If the Holy Ghost enters a person at conversion and you baptize someone in water as an outward sign of the inward work of the Holy Spirit, why didn't Paul lay hands on them first and then baptize them in water?

[oletimer]

paul Wrote:

oletimer wrote:

Paul wrote:

I believe that every believer who has confessed Christ, has within them the presence of the Holy Spirit in His fullness, and is capable of speaking in tongues and being used in any of the giftings.

And the UPC said AMAN

Because the pentecostal and charismatics have so identified the Filling of the Holy Spirit with speaking in tongues, we have missed about 99.9% of the purpose of the Holy Spirit being given to the Believer and the church

I'm not agreeing with yall on this. The UPC (United Pentecostal Church) believe that you are not saved untill you received the Holy Ghost. So do you/yall believe it that way, it seems that you do. (BTW I'm not trying to be offensive to the UPC, I have many frends that are UPC.)

In my first post on this thread I gave many reasons why I feel this way. When you look to the whole picture, the Holy Ghost/Spirit wasn't here untill the day of Pentecost, so that being as it was was all the people still lost waiting on the HG to get here to get saved?

I'm as much of the Trinity of God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Ghost with the work as one, as I'm with their individual work.

Trinity may reference the Three, but doesn't means that They/God is/are all doing the same things at the same time.

It was God pleasure to show the three Persons of the God Head as read in Mathew.

Mt 3:16
And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
Mt 3:17
And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

[Pastor Gary]

When you look to the whole picture, the Holy Ghost/Spirit wasn't here untill the day of Pentecost, so that being as it was was all the people still lost waiting on the HG to get here to get saved?

Really? You believe that the Holy Ghost wasn't here until the day of Pentecost?

Genesis 1:2
Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

Genesis 41:38
So Pharaoh asked them, "Can we find anyone like this man, one in whom is the spirit of God?"

Exodus 31:2-3
"See, I have chosen Bezalel son of Uri, the son of Hur, of the tribe of Judah, and I have filled him with the Spirit of God, with skill, ability and knowledge in all kinds of crafts...

Numbers 11:25
When the Spirit rested on them, they prophesied,...

1 Samuel 10:6
The Spirit of the LORD will come upon you in power, and you will prophesy with them; and you will be changed into a different person.

2 Samuel 23:2
"The Spirit of the LORD spoke through me; his word was on my tongue.

Psalm 51:11
Do not cast me from your presence or take your Holy Spirit from me.

There are just HUNDREDS of verses in the Old Testament to show that the Spirit of God... the HOLY Spirit... has always been, and has interacted with man from creation. The Spirit has come upon people, filled people and caused people to do things forever -- and didn't suddenly appear on the scene at Pentecost.

[oletimer]

PG during the time of Jesus walk, there are not reference as to where the HG worked as before Jesus' time here. "It is expedient for you that I go away" Why, so that the HG could come/come back.

I don't know all the hows and whys God works the way He does, just know that the how and why He does something is OK with me. I do know that when Jesus came as Christ, that a lot things seem to change as to the office of One over the other. I know that it was preordained "from the foundation of the world" of the program that is in place now. After Christ camed many things and ways were changed.

Joh 16:7
¶ Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

Joh 16:8
And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
Joh 16:9
Of sin, because they believe not on me;
Joh 16:10
Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
Joh 16:11
Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.
Joh 16:12
I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
Joh 16:13
Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
Joh 16:14
He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
Joh 16:15
All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

[Poimen]

Another problem with the infilling being the same as being Born of the Spirit is found in Acts 19:5-6 itself. Paul baptized the Ephesians in water and then laid hands on them to receive the Holy Ghost. If the Holy Ghost enters a person at conversion and you baptize someone in water as an outward sign of the inward work of the Holy Spirit, why didn't Paul lay hands on them first and then baptize them in water?

Which is why, among others, I do not deny a post-conversion "Spirit Baptism", though I can now admit one is obviously indwelt of the Spirit at conversion itself.

[Poimen]

Ole timer,

The coming of the Holy Ghost is not a denial of his omnipresence. He is already here and everywhere at one and the same time, and has always been so. Obviously then the coming of the Spirit refers to the new dimension in which He would operate in and through the NT community of believers. Not to the literal presence or absence of the Spirit on the earth.

Indeed, if the Spirit were absent in any part of creation He would manifestly fail to be divine, "For in Him we live and move and have our being."

Furthermore, per Paul the Spirit of Christ is the Spirit of God, the Holy Ghost. Let God be true, and all else be liars.

Romans 8:9
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

[pastorables]

The coming of the Holy Ghost is not a denial of his omnipresence. He is already here and everywhere at one and the same time, and has always been so. Obviously then the coming of the Spirit refers to the new dimension in which He would operate in and through the NT community of believers. Not to the literal presence or absence of the Spirit on the earth.

Precisely. Similar to the fact that the Son of God didn't just begin existence in Matthew 1:18. The Son of God was present and active in creation, as well as witnessed walking in the fire with Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego.

pa

[beckrl]

When you look to the whole picture, the Holy Ghost/Spirit wasn't here untill the day of Pentecost, so that being as it was was all the people still lost waiting on the HG to get here to get saved?

Really? You believe that the Holy Ghost wasn't here until the day of Pentecost?

Genesis 1:2
Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

Genesis 41:38
So Pharaoh asked them, "Can we find anyone like this man, one in whom is the spirit of God?"

Exodus 31:2-3
"See, I have chosen Bezalel son of Uri, the son of Hur, of the tribe of Judah, and I have filled him with the Spirit of God, with skill, ability and knowledge in all kinds of crafts...

Numbers 11:25
When the Spirit rested on them, they prophesied,...

1 Samuel 10:6
The Spirit of the LORD will come upon you in power, and you will prophesy with them; and you will be changed into a different person.

2 Samuel 23:2
"The Spirit of the LORD spoke through me; his word was on my tongue.

Psalm 51:11
Do not cast me from your presence or take your Holy Spirit from me.

There are just HUNDREDS of verses in the Old Testament to show that the Spirit of God... the HOLY Spirit... has always been, and has interacted with man from creation. The Spirit has come upon people, filled people and caused people to do things forever -- and didn't suddenly appear on the scene at Pentecost.

PG

Here is what came to me as I read your scriptures.
1 Samuel 16:13
Then Samuel took the horn of oil, and anointed him in the midst of his brethren: and the Spirit of the LORD came upon David from that day forward. So Samuel rose up, and went to Ramah.

[beckrl]

PG during the time of Jesus walk, there are not reference as to where the HG worked as before Jesus' time here. "It is expedient for you that I go away" Why, so that the HG could come/come back.

I don't know all the hows and whys God works the way He does, just know that the how and why He does something is OK with me. I do know that when Jesus came as Christ, that a lot things seem to change as to the office of One over the other. I know that it was preordained "from the foundation of the world" of the program that is in place now. After Christ camed many things and ways were changed.

Joh 16:7
¶ Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

Joh 16:8
And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
Joh 16:9
Of sin, because they believe not on me;
Joh 16:10
Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
Joh 16:11
Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.
Joh 16:12
I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
Joh 16:13
Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
Joh 16:14
He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
Joh 16:15
All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

Hi oletimer
I understand what you are saying, although I would add to the scripture I posted in the above post. 1 Samuel 16:13

Normally the anointing oil was used for kings and priest, but not for everyone. I believe that is one reason that Jesus is the fulfillment of all things and promised that a comforter would come and place a seal upon all that are of God's.

1 John 2:27
But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him

That's my 2 cents. I'll let ya'll continue