grace and judgement

dawgs10 · Postby **dawgs10** » November 19th, 2009, 2:43 am

does it seem to you that more Christians ignore scripture about judgement and can quote vs. after vs. about grace? does it seem that we have no middle ground on this subject? what does most Christians do with 11 peter 2:19-22 and hebrews 10? are we in the time that people are truly scrambling to minsters with their ears itching? what do you guys think?

Mike Vande · Postby **Mike Vande** » November 19th, 2009, 11:11 am

dawgs10 wrote:does it seem to you that more Christians ignore scripture about judgement and can quote vs. after vs. about grace? does it seem that we have no middle ground on this subject? what does most Christians do with 11 peter 2:19-22 and hebrews 10? are we in the time that people are truly scrambling to minsters with their ears itching? what do you guys think?

We probably are in the time you are talking about, but I don't know if a lack of red-faced pulpit pounding on judgment is a symptom of it, really.

Most of the sermons I hear these days about aren't directly about judgment or grace, but rather living as Christians in a hostile world. And, I think that's is proper, considering that the largest part of the New Testament is about that. Frankly, I find that topic more salient to my daily life and walk with God than blood & thunder sermons about judgment, or warm fuzzy lessons about grace.

Take a "forest, not the trees" view of the way God dealt with sin in this world;He didn't scold, entreat, bullyrag, cajole, wheedle, or whine about sin and judgment, hoping to invoke enough guilt and shame to attract people. Instead, He took the sin of mankind onto himself. The main thrust if the Gospel is a message of God making it possible for man to establish a loving relationship with Him in this life from which salvation is an outgrowth. It is NOT a fire insurance message of escaping the horrible consequences of judgment so that you can have a relationship with God in the next life.

Postby **Pastor Gary** » November 19th, 2009, 12:42 pm

Maybe because some of us who grew up in the days 90% judgment/10% mercy have read James 2:13 now:

"... judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful. Mercy triumphs over judgment!"

dawgs10 · Postby **dawgs10** » November 19th, 2009, 4:47 pm

pastor gary, i agree. my question is this. Is there a happy medium where people can hear it all. have we went to far with grace in an attempt to correct the past and forgotten that God is not only a friend and a father but someone that will judge? to ignore both and preach the olsteen message week after week would be a wrong doing, would it not? do we not believe that we are still sinners in the hand of an angry God? have churchs become the country club without the buffet and 18 holes?

Darling · Postby **Darling** » November 19th, 2009, 5:23 pm

The older I get, the longer I serve HIM, the more thankful I am for His wonderful Grace and all that that Grace has enriched my life.

oletimer · Postby **oletimer** » November 19th, 2009, 6:58 pm

Mercy and grace we desire, but some where a long the way there will be judgement. My hope is that we will get it doe down here and not hae face it on Judgement Day.

1Pe 4:17
For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
1Pe 4:18
And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

I think a balance of both is needed.

Brian · Postby **Brian** » November 19th, 2009, 8:49 pm

dawgs10 wrote:do we not believe that we are still sinners in the hand of an angry God?

I don't know that I have ever believed that.

Postby **Pastor Gary** » November 20th, 2009, 12:03 am

dawgs10 wrote:pastor gary, i agree. my question is this. Is there a happy medium where people can hear it all. have we went to far with grace in an attempt to correct the past and forgotten that God is not only a friend and a father but someone that will judge?

Sure... and I am always trying to strike the right balance. If I err, I would ALWAYS prefer to err on the side of grace. It's amazing. :wink:

dawgs10 · Postby **dawgs10** » November 20th, 2009, 4:58 pm

Pastor Gary wrote:
dawgs10 wrote:pastor gary, i agree. my question is this. Is there a happy medium where people can hear it all. have we went to far with grace in an attempt to correct the past and forgotten that God is not only a friend and a father but someone that will judge?

Sure... and I am always trying to strike the right balance. If I err, I would ALWAYS prefer to err on the side of grace. It's amazing.

i think its a very important balance to strike and i am sure you do a great job at it. i have been preaching for about three years and wonder if i am at the right balance. i have had a chance to hear sermons by bishop browder in the last year and have thought he has a wonderful balanced "attack". others in cogop seem not to be there at all. its one or the other. i guess i am trying to get there myself.

Postby **Pastor Gary** » November 20th, 2009, 9:47 pm

dawgs10 wrote:
Pastor Gary wrote:
dawgs10 wrote:pastor gary, i agree. my question is this. Is there a happy medium where people can hear it all. have we went to far with grace in an attempt to correct the past and forgotten that God is not only a friend and a father but someone that will judge?

Sure... and I am always trying to strike the right balance. If I err, I would ALWAYS prefer to err on the side of grace. It's amazing.

i think its a very important balance to strike and i am sure you do a great job at it. i have been preaching for about three years and wonder if i am at the right balance. i have had a chance to hear sermons by bishop browder in the last year and have thought he has a wonderful balanced "attack". others in cogop seem not to be there at all. its one or the other. i guess i am trying to get there myself.

I taught David Browder everything he knows. :lol:

Nah... seriously, we are good friends, and I was his pastor for a long time.

Pastorbps · Postby **Pastorbps** » November 21st, 2009, 5:23 am

It is disturbing that many Christians live condemned because of hearing preaching about sin, judgment, and Hell without hearing the messages they needed on justification by faith, grace, and mercy.

It is also disturbing that many people hear only about grace and mercy but they never hear about sin and accountability. People only appreciate mercy and grace when they realize their own sinfulness and need for mercy and grace. More importantly, we have taken away one of the edges of the "two edged sword."

I think Jonathan Edwards was right to preach "Sinners in the hands of an angry God." He wasn't saying God wanted this for sinners or that God was ready to unleash His anger on them at any time but he was stating the reality that life is uncertain and that day could come at any moment. He was warning sinners of the final state of the unrepentant. "It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God." The result was the Great Awakening.

The problem is so many Christians live condemned because of a misunderstanding of Grace and how one is justified, that they see themselves as "Christians in the hands of an angry God."

Christians don't need the law of God. It is written in their hearts. However, they are not afraid of hearing the law of God. All it will do is confirm something the Holy Spirit is speaking to their heart or they will know they are not guilty. The only "Christians" who are afraid of the hearing the laws of God are those who are unrepentant which shows their heart is not right in the sight of God. On the other hand, sinners do need to hear about sin and the consequences of sin. They need to know they are sinners in need of a Saviour, in need of grace and mercy.

Probably the greatest song ever written on "Grace" says it best "Twas grace that taught my heart to fear and grace my fears relieved."

Full Quiver · Postby **Full Quiver** » November 21st, 2009, 5:29 am

have churchs become the country club without the buffet and 18 holes?

now there's a marketing scheme O Dr. Ron....

Mike Vande · Postby **Mike Vande** » November 21st, 2009, 10:33 pm

dawgs10 wrote:pastor gary, i agree. my question is this. Is there a happy medium where people can hear it all. have we went to far with grace in an attempt to correct the past and forgotten that God is not only a friend and a father but someone that will judge? to ignore both and preach the olsteen message week after week would be a wrong doing, would it not? do we not believe that we are still sinners in the hand of an angry God? have churchs become the country club without the buffet and 18 holes?

Jude 2