I was discussing this with a friend of mine

[dawgs10]

4th generation COGOP!!! and loving it!!!!!!

[RamboPreacher]

Started a Sunday School class called GAP (Grads and Professionals). mostly for HS grads that there was no other slipstreaming into "the church" from Children's ministry to youth ministry.

The class started over 2 years ago. we started on a curriculum that was (oddly enough) also called GAP (from the same curriculum as the other SS materials we buy from WW). We used it for a quarter, then as a class moved on to something less traditional. Curriculum I had developed as a test-thesis for one of my masters. Mostly just notes and outlines.

I turned it into a full-out introduction to theology class that lasted for about 2 years. starting with the Bible, then on to each person of the triunity, and on and on in various aspects of theology, and why we believe what we believe and do we believe what we believe is really, really true.

The last (optional) module was on eschatology, and various views. not teaching any one specifically, but showing the overviews of the various points of view.

All that to say, that all of the teens and youth that were in that class are now in college, have jobs, etc, and are still in the church. in fact, most of them have been transferred out of that class and into a class the Pastor is teaching on being called to the ministry, and the COGOP Lay-ministry information.

SO far, three of them have already been set forth for Lay ministry, most of the rest are in process and wanting to go that direction.

(My class is down to a few people, but there are HS graduates every year).

just an example. I have posted about this before, but we (the church, not just COGOP), in general have a great plan for children, adn then a graduation and transition to Jr. youth or a single youth group (depending on size), then a graduation and transition to Sr. youth, as necessary.

but then at the end of HS, at the most critical time in a young person's life, they are then just sent up to the main auditorium. some places have graduations and the like, but there really is no academic or theological transitioning.

these young people are getting jobs, getting cars, going to college, and all kinds of "life" is happening to them, as they are maturing. they get "churched" only once a week or so, but they are influenced by their "liberal" worldview at college and at jobs. they have no countermeasures for that kind of heavy impressions and guiding. (again, generally speaking)

The are bombarded by the academy with questions that are directed to disprove God. Why doesn't God heal amputees? why is there "evil" in the world? (expressed in many questions). if God is real, why doesn't He just make it plain for us, etc. the logic seems to be coherent when it comes from their HS teachers, college professors, and co-workers, etc.

we need to provide them with the ammunition they need. I am not saying that faith is not there, but there needs to be some apologetic understanding. "because my pastor said so" isn't good enough. again, don't take that wrong. having a good pastor is a requirement. but just telling someone what to believe is not good enough.

Show/instruct them first what the Bible is, how it has matured and about the manuscripts available; how it is authoritative, etc..., and with that sure foundation, build on what it says for life, than quoting verses is appropriate. but someone saying the Bible is God's Word, and not knowing why is a sandy foundation, sure to be washed away at every academic/secular approach they will encounter.

[paul]

4th generation COGOP!!! and loving it!!!!!!

dawgs, dyed in the wool, true blue to the bone Church of God/'s functioning outside the traditional Church of God/'s denomination....and loving it...

Rambo said:

these young people are getting jobs, getting cars, going to college, and all kinds of "life" is happening to them, as they are maturing. they get "churched" only once a week or so, but they are influenced by their "liberal" worldview at college and at jobs. they have no countermeasures for that kind of heavy impressions and guiding. (again, generally speaking)

Rambo check out http://www.isom.org A new seminar session called The Seven Mountain Stragety. Really fantastic... Preparing young men and women to be highly effective in seven major areas of influence.... Media, government, Education, Art's, Religion etc....

[PastorP]

I have been a member of the COGOP for 52 years and in ministry for 45 years, so I probably won't be able to shed any light on the question at hand, but here goes anyway!

Personally, so many have been lost to the COGOP because for so many years we, I include myself, have been so dogmatic about our feeling and teaching exclusivity so strongly. (Please excuse my poor spelling) Talk about being "dyed in the wool", I have repented for many things that I have taught and preached because it was passed to me by the generation before me.

You cannot expect God to bless a wrong attitude, spirit or any other way you may want to say it. How long has it been since the COGOP was called to repentance and how well have we obeyed.

It is obvious that some fellt that the COGOP had left direction from God, so they went on their way. In reality, I believe that there has been a real effort to get the COGOP on track, but remember, we didn't get in this hole in one day and it will take time to get out of the hole and see the growth that so many are hungering to experience.

Too see a change in the degree that I am speaking, there must be more emphasis on the local church operating and functioning more like the NT Church, without fear of retaliation from any HQ.

[ImaPK]

Now I'm gonna ask the HARD question. What is COGOP doing(if anything) to get some of that "lost generation" back. Or have they just written them off? I'm not talking about what they are doing for the current generation I mean the "lost generation". Has anyone reached out to them? We had some great leaders among us. Where are the IYCers from the late 60s to late 70s? Yeah I know that ONE of them is now GO but what about the other thousand or so? I'm gonna give all of you something to think about. I've been coming onto J2 for several years now and have been "challenging" J2 to witness to me by proclaiming that "I am the resident sinner on J2". Maybe 5 of you have taken up the "challenge". Oh sure I'm being prayed for but I've been getting that for years. How many have asked me WHY I'm not a Christian? Yep COGOP has learned from past mistakes but it seems as though they've forgotten to try and reclaim those mistakes.
Ok I better shut up now and prepare for the "pile on".

[scooter]

Now I'm gonna ask the HARD question. What is COGOP doing(if anything) to get some of that "lost generation" back. Or have they just written them off? I'm not talking about what they are doing for the current generation I mean the "lost generation". Has anyone reached out to them? We had some great leaders among us. Where are the IYCers from the late 60s to late 70s? Yeah I know that ONE of them is now GO but what about the other thousand or so? I'm gonna give all of you something to think about. I've been coming onto J2 for several years now and have been "challenging" J2 to witness to me by proclaiming that "I am the resident sinner on J2". Maybe 5 of you have taken up the "challenge". Oh sure I'm being prayed for but I've been getting that for years. How many have asked me WHY I'm not a Christian? Yep COGOP has learned from past mistakes but it seems as though they've forgotten to try and reclaim those mistakes.
Ok I better shut up now and prepare for the "pile on".

Response: Let me ask a question, Who's advice or direction would you value above that of your own parents?

There is a very narrow nature to your question which sets up unrealistic expectations.

As a leader within the CoGop now, I have no list of who left the Church in the 60's and 70's, though I do actively pursue resortation for anyone within the realm of my general influence.

Many have chosen a life of sin. Some are serving in other ministries. Some are restored. So I would say what you look for happens somewhat naturally in ministry without an official branch of "restoration ministry".

One truth your posting does reveal is the need for it to be someone elses fault. The blame game.

I hope that one day the knowledge which has been afforded you one day overtakes your self will.

We have a lot in common.

[dawgs10]

what is very exciting is that i am meeting alot of first generation COGOP folks. i think that was the issue. why did we lose a generation, maybe because we were not adding 1st generation members and just trying to hang on to what we had. stagnation will turn younger people off. i will say this, there is a need for young adult ministry in COGOP. i agree. the issue i have is young adults sitting around and saying there is nothing here for me when there is ministry needs in the children's ministry, or care group ministry, or Sunday school, or youth. God has called us all to ministry. discipleship works much better if we are involved in ministry ourselves. but there is a lazy mind set in the church that says i want to receive ministry and never put back. that's the main issue with young adults now. i have no idea about then. again i must say i am proud to be a minister in Cogop, 4th generation, raising my children in the church and was able to see my wife become a 1st generation member. its a great church with great people and if your not in it your missing out.

[Phil Hoover]

Now I'm gonna ask the HARD question. What is COGOP doing(if anything) to get some of that "lost generation" back. Or have they just written them off? I'm not talking about what they are doing for the current generation I mean the "lost generation". Has anyone reached out to them? We had some great leaders among us. Where are the IYCers from the late 60s to late 70s? Yeah I know that ONE of them is now GO but what about the other thousand or so?

Great questions. There is a regular commercial on all the major television stations here in Chicago, "Catholics, Come Home"...and it speaks to those "lapsed" Catholics who are away from the church....asking them to come back.

What about those of us (that does include me) who left the COGOP (many of us with broken hearts)? Are we even "wanted" back in the denomination? Would anyone want us back in the denomination?

Or is the leadership so bent on getting a 'church college' that those of the "lost generation" are pretty much written off, and forgotten?

Those are the questions that should be answered....and does anyone have any idea about this?

[dawgs10]

i know that there are some that leave church's that should not come back. one person that i dealt with personally could find something wrong with an ice cream cone. had a bad spirit all the time and was just not happy in COGOP. they are gone and should not come back unless they have a change of heart and attitude. most people that have left COGOP would be welcomed back if they wanted to come back. my opinion.

[Merrie]

I am in that late 60's early 70's group that left the church. I was in church from birth till about 10 years ago. My brother, who is a few years older, also left the church several years before I did. We were both very much involved in church (brother was a deacon) and our Dad is still a member. We both left because of disillusion and hurts. I would still be dying on that pew if God had not shaken my life through circumstances. Both of us wound up in a good Assembly of God congregation.
What I found in the church was legalism, elitism, condemnation, hypocrisy, and no love. I was amazed when I left that those who I was taught not to fellowship with when I was in high school (Baptists and Methodists and anyone not COGOP) were the ones who showed me love and support when I needed it. A friend at work now (Baptist) humbles and embarrasses me with her Bible knowledge and personal relationship with Him. I have learned so much in the last few years!

WE had a great youth program when I was in high school, which I appreciate. The fellowship and activities kept a lot of us involved. However, there was not enough focus on teaching the Bible and how to live day to day. Most of the teaching and preaching I heard all my life was about the church or what not to do. I don't remember grace being taught. As a result, I have tried all my life as the good Pharisee that I became, to earn my family's and God's love through the works of living by those teachings.

The church needs to, first of all, show and teach the greatest commandment: Love. It needs to teach the Bible, old and new testament in depth like RamboPreacher mentions doing. It needs to get involved in community needs and activities and reach out to others, not act like an exclusive club. How were we to reach others or learn to interact with them when we were not allowed to participate in so many harmless things?
We and some of the others we know from that era are still loving and serving God. I am amazed at the names of many of those from that time period who also have left the church. We are 'recovering COGOP' now. You should participate in some of our conversations/therapy sessions.

I think we need to realize that the goal is not 'building up the church' so much as loving and equipping those who we we are entrusted to our circle so they know and live for Him.

[Paully_44]

I'm a Baptist transplant into the CoGoP. My feeling is, if someone has left this denomination for another so be it. As long as they are still involved and have a relationship with God, it doesnt matter to me what denomination lable they wear.

But like Pastor Gary has stated, many if not all denominations have people leaving.

[ImaPK]

Scooter I value no ones advice more then what my parents gave me that was never the problem. My dad was not always my pastor growing up. My dad DID involve me when he was a pastor. Where do you think I got my love for the church? I blame no one but myself for the life I have chosen, I MADE THE DECISION ALL ON MY OWN. You said that you minister to those of the "lost generation" that you encounter which is great-as an individual. YOU did not lose the generation because you are of the generation. Oh that others were like you and reached out to those who turned away. The most dynamic leader of my generation as a kid in California was the cousin of the current SO of KY for COGOP. ALWAYS voted "Most Popular Boy" at YC. Because of one incident he was "branded" a troublemaker and eventually turned away from the Church. All of this before he was 16. He died at the age of 23 from a drug overdose. He was the best friend I have ever had in my life. We were never given a chance to "repent" because NO ONE gave us a second chance. The one good thing that I can say about our "lost generation" is that there are alot more people from the generation that followed us that "learned" from our "mistakes" and went on to serve the Lord and the Church. Am I bitter about what happened? At one time I would have said yes. Now I'm just sad about all the wasted years when I could have been serving the Lord. Is it too late? Only God knows the answer to that. BECAUSE until I MAKE the decision to change the answer is yes.

Merrie said

What I found in the church was legalism, elitism, condemnation, hypocrisy, and no love. I was amazed when I left that those who I was taught not to fellowship with when I was in high school (Baptists and Methodists and anyone not COGOP) were the ones who showed me love and support when I needed it.

So it was with me.

[Phil Hoover]

[As a leader within the CoGop now, I have no list of who left the Church in the 60's and 70's, though I do actively pursue resortation for anyone within the realm of my general influence.

Many have chosen a life of sin. Some are serving in other ministries. Some are restored. So I would say what you look for happens somewhat naturally in ministry without an official branch of "restoration ministry".

One truth your posting does reveal is the need for it to be someone elses fault. The blame game.

I hope that one day the knowledge which has been afforded you one day overtakes your self will.

We have a lot in common.

But Scooter, while I would never want to 'blame anyone' for my ultimate decisions....many of us were made to feel as though we were not important, and that we were truly NOT WANTED if we viewed things differently from the "standard operating procedure" in the denomination.

I have MORE THAN ONE FRIEND who grew up in a pastor's home, and had a rich, lengthy heritage in the Church of God of Prophecy. Some of those same people not only have left the denomination, but have become so disillusioned with God and all things Christian, that it breaks my heart.

I do not, REPEAT, do not have a strong heritage in the denomination....but the grace of God and the family of God have always been available to me, and I'm grateful for the good sense and MERCY to find those two elements regardless of where I am living.

My generation LEFT by and large...and it seems though no one really cares...or even has contemplated caring....

That is truly, truly sad.

[scooter]

I imagine if I were you I'd feel the same way.

From my perspective there are people who persevere and people who quit in every church and in every denomination.

I'm 44. I was lost by the CoGop. From the age of 11-26 I basically was lost. I was not saved by a restoration program. I could easily play the victim of "that Church lost me and didn't care". I chose rather to man up and attempt to redeem the time I wasted.

Our Church suffered much trauma through the 80's and 90's as a result of mistakes made.

I'm surprised it survived, but it did. I choose to believe it did for a purpose. I am part of that purpose.

You both know where the church is and where it has been.

It is a shame to play the drama of "nobody cares" about an entire generation from an outside perspective. There are caring pastors filling many of the pulpits now who had no part of what happened, fought for change while it was happening, were a part of what did happen and have repented, left with the Real Church, insert your favorite hipocritical split here or at worst case are still fighting a few knuckle headed old timers who still believe they were right and I know those exsist.

The leadership changed direction under Brother Murray but it was much like Luthers one step out of Catholocism. He did his part.

I heard the leadership of the Church repent of exclusivity from the Assembly floor, but an organization like ours doesn't change over night.

I'm sure there are pockets of nonsense everywhere, but the organization as a whole cares about generations. Sometimes I am tempted to blame the previous generation for lack it would be so easy.

However I now realize I will soon be the previous generation. There have been people who have left on my watch. I mostly know the reasoning and after a few attempts of reconciliation its on them. I don't have time to beat dead bushes when live ones need attention. I'll be blamed for that by somebody.

I'm big enough to shoulder reality.

In one effort to restore a family I apologized for every hurt the church had ever caused, though I wasn't a part of it, asked them to forgive me, took them in loved them, helped them and they bit me and revealed that there was probably good reason for them to leave.

I've also found out that some of my best victory and growth has come from "some" people leaving. Those I don't try to restore as much.

[ImaPK]

Scooter said

"nobody cares"

Never said that "nobody cares". For me scooter, there was a handful of people, Pansy Mckibben, Bill Richardson, Christine Gillum, Joy Laws and a few others who tried to guide us in the right direction. They had the "heart" for young people. They saw the potential in us. They knew that we were the future leaders of the Church. I sat for nearly two hours talking to Bill Akers at a Youth Retreat here in Tennessee. One of Paully's in laws could tell you a similar story about the way it was back then. He was one of "us". Yes I'm an outsider but consider this. As late as 1994 when I had been living in Cleveland for several years, NOT ONCE did a member of COGOP come to visit me or if they saw me at work at Foodmax, invite me to church. Seems like it was the same old same old. The only one that I could talk to in Cleveland in confidence was Perry Gillum and that's only because for most of my life he has been "Uncle Gene" to me. I'm not saying it's just COGOP thats that way. My mom died almost a year ago and I've talked to ONE person(besides family and on here) from TCOG and, except for on here, NO ONE from COGOP. To quote a "famous" person,

I've also found out that some of my best victory and growth has come from "some" people leaving. Those I don't try to restore as much.

I guess to most I fall in that catagory of "some".