I was discussing this with a friend of mine

[scooter]

Never said that "nobody cares".

NO ONE from COGOP.

I sat for nearly two hours talking to Bill Akers at a Youth Retreat here in Tennessee.

Response: Bill Akers is my family. He had vision beyond the leadership he served under. We lost him. I know what you are talking about and the hurt that could be associated. However, I still think it falls under the catagory of personal pity rather than where it should fall, personal responsibility.

The fact is you have left your work for another, making the work harder on them and then criticize them for the work they aren't doing. I hope you can find the courage to simply say yes.

[ImaPK]

Scooter said

However, I still think it falls under the catagory of personal pity rather than where it should fall, personal responsibility.

ImaPK said

I blame no one but myself for the life I have chosen, I MADE THE DECISION ALL ON MY OWN.

I HAVE taken personal responsibility. No self pity here, just a relection on a life wasted. I look at friends from my past-and present- and REFLECT on what they could have been. No pity involved just would have should have and could have. I don't regret all of the things I've done in the past, but I'm not proud of some of the things I've done. Everything I've done has made me the person I am today. I turned 55 today and I see where I have made mistakes in my life. I also see where I have done good in my life. I know that I have disappointed people in my past yet I also rest easy with the knowledge that I have also helped and raised up people in the past. Like everyone else, I have had a good life with bumps along the way. Like everyone else also, there have been times when I've looked back and wonder what might have been if I had of "done this instead of that". But like I said everything I've done has made me what I am. Everything that has happened to me was for a reason. Self pity? NO! Self reflection? DAILY! If the time ever comes when I do say yes I hope you are near as I do for all of those who have prayed for me over the years.

[Pastorbps]

Here's my perspective.
The COGOP used to have a belief in their own uniqueness. The leadership theorized that if we changed our theology to fit with all other organizations then people would start attending our churches. Instead, it had an unintended result. When we became like others, the younger generations said, "Well, if there is no difference between us and other churches then why should I attend a COGOP especially when the other churches have bigger and better everything (million dollar youth, children, music budgets, location is closer, etc). When I was growing up people used to pass other churches on their way to a COGOP because they believed in that uniqueness. Now, they don't pass those churches. It has especially affected the younger generation because the older generations still have a sentimental connection with the COGOP.
This is even more of an issue because of the attitude of the younger generation. I find the younger generations to be very "Me" oriented and to have a spirit of entitlement. They are not looking for churches where they can use their gifts. They are looking for churches where they can be get, get, get. "Entertain me and if you don't entertain me then I don't owe you or God anything. Meet me at the door with a Cappuccino, shoot some lasers, and blow some smoke and I might come. Don't expect me every week and don't expect anything from me if I come." Don't even mention self-denial and sacrifice to them. To be honest, I'm not sure we didn't build that expectation into them by trying to reach them on a carnal level.
To some degree this is not unique to the COGOP. We are finding other churches losing their youth to the "Walmart" syndrome which is putting pressure on the "Mom & Pop" churches. Look at the numbers of Mega-Churches today compared to 20 years ago. Many (Not all and many times unwittingly) "Mega-churches" feed this "Me" attitude and have little accountability and few expectations.
This explains why they are abandoning one church for another church. Why people are abandoning "the faith" is a different question but it is probably related. Water down Christianity enough and it becomes "unnecessary" to people. Everyone is going to Heaven anyway. There are no absolutes. All roads lead to Heaven. There is no Hell or judgment to fear. It is a simple step to complete abandonment. They probably abandoned it in their hearts long before.

You can believe this post or not but I am pretty close to being dead on.

[paul]

"Pastorbps"Here's my perspective.

The COGOP used to have a belief in their own uniqueness. The leadership theorized that if we changed our theology to fit with all other organizations then people would start attending our churches.

While I understand the direction of your post, there are many generalities. Even though I have not been a part of cogop for many years, I have family who still are. They would, and I also disagree that the theology changes made was to build attendance. They and I seen many flaws in the old exclusive doctrine and some of the teaching as they were.

Instead, it had an unintended result. When we became like others, the younger generations said, "Well, if there is no difference between us and other churches then why should I attend a COGOP especially when the other churches have bigger and better everything (million dollar youth, children, music budgets, location is closer, etc). When I was growing up people used to pass other churches on their way to a COGOP because they believed in that uniqueness. Now, they don't pass those churches. It has especially affected the younger generation because the older generations still have a sentimental connection with the COGOP.

I doubt that the majority of those who left cogop ended up in Mega churches. Most of those I know ended up in A/G's COG, some Baptist and Methodist. Generally churches that would not run more than 150-300 (not a mega church) Some of the ministers that left have gone on to build some quite large churches and ministries.

This is even more of an issue because of the attitude of the younger generation. I find the younger generations to be very "Me" oriented and to have a spirit of entitlement. They are not looking for churches where they can use their gifts. They are looking for churches where they can be get, get, get. "Entertain me and if you don't entertain me then I don't owe you or God anything. Meet me at the door with a Cappuccino, shoot some lasers, and blow some smoke and I might come. Don't expect me every week and don't expect anything from me if I come."

I don't disagree completely here with you, and see it as a very large blanket statement that does not apply across the board.

To some degree this is not unique to the COGOP. We are finding other churches losing their youth to the "Walmart" syndrome which is putting pressure on the "Mom & Pop" churches. Look at the numbers of Mega-Churches today compared to 20 years ago. Many (Not all and many times unwittingly) "Mega-churches" feed this "Me" attitude and have little accountability and few expectations.
This explains why they are abandoning one church for another church. Why people are abandoning "the faith" is a different question but it is probably related. Water down Christianity enough and it becomes "unnecessary" to people. Everyone is going to Heaven anyway. There are no absolutes. All roads lead to Heaven. There is no Hell or judgment to fear. It is a simple step to complete abandonment. They probably abandoned it in their hearts long before.

First I would totally disagree with the idea that the church should be a "Mom & Pop operation. And I also do not agree that the local church is threatened by Mega Churhes. In my oponion, no local church should exist if they do not have a purpose and understand that as a local church they are unique and that no other local church has the exact same purpose. Each community and people group is different and each church must have its own uniqueness to meet those needs. I do blame some local churches for not fostering a real purpose in the lives of their youth. That is why people should go to your church. Not because of a name over the door, but rather the cry of their heart matches the cry of that local church.

I fault many leaders in many organization that are merely maintenance men.... they do not cast a purpose before the people and the people flounder....they leave not because of desiring to be more liberal but rather they are in search of real meaning and purpose of the call of God on their lives.

just my nickles worth

[oletimer]

Pastorbps

"Here's my perspective."

Though Paul may have a point or two, I think that you may have got very close to the core. I know that there more reasons also, as there is no one reason.

[one love]

Here's my perspective.
The COGOP used to have a belief in their own uniqueness. The leadership theorized that if we changed our theology to fit with all other organizations then people would start attending our churches. Instead, it had an unintended result. When we became like others, the younger generations said, "Well, if there is no difference between us and other churches then why should I attend a COGOP especially when the other churches have bigger and better everything (million dollar youth, children, music budgets, location is closer, etc). When I was growing up people used to pass other churches on their way to a COGOP because they believed in that uniqueness. Now, they don't pass those churches. It has especially affected the younger generation because the older generations still have a sentimental connection with the COGOP.
This is even more of an issue because of the attitude of the younger generation. I find the younger generations to be very "Me" oriented and to have a spirit of entitlement. They are not looking for churches where they can use their gifts. They are looking for churches where they can be get, get, get. "Entertain me and if you don't entertain me then I don't owe you or God anything. Meet me at the door with a Cappuccino, shoot some lasers, and blow some smoke and I might come. Don't expect me every week and don't expect anything from me if I come." Don't even mention self-denial and sacrifice to them. To be honest, I'm not sure we didn't build that expectation into them by trying to reach them on a carnal level.
To some degree this is not unique to the COGOP. We are finding other churches losing their youth to the "Walmart" syndrome which is putting pressure on the "Mom & Pop" churches. Look at the numbers of Mega-Churches today compared to 20 years ago. Many (Not all and many times unwittingly) "Mega-churches" feed this "Me" attitude and have little accountability and few expectations.
This explains why they are abandoning one church for another church. Why people are abandoning "the faith" is a different question but it is probably related. Water down Christianity enough and it becomes "unnecessary" to people. Everyone is going to Heaven anyway. There are no absolutes. All roads lead to Heaven. There is no Hell or judgment to fear. It is a simple step to complete abandonment. They probably abandoned it in their hearts long before.

You can believe this post or not but I am pretty close to being dead on.

This is one of the most accurate statements/post that I have ever seen!!!!! Agree or not the proof is in the pudding!!!

[dolfan]

Pastorbps, what you described about people being "me" centered is not particularly a COGOP thing. It is everywhere. It is THE prevalent characteristic of the culture. As I was in the mall today, I was just sort of watching teens/twenty-somethings, their affect, their gestures, their clothing (I was waiting on my wife to get through in a clothing store, and I don't like going in because the dye messes with my sinuses -- I know, big crybaby me). I was just thinking how different they seem to me than when I was at that age. The biggest difference, and maybe the most important one (I guess) was deference to others. Without belaboring it here, it just seems to me that there is a distinct new flavor of selfishness about today. And, your description of what you see as a COGOP feature is actually true of pretty much our whole younger culture. So, I guess I'm saying this to get to this point: what you're describing doesn't seem to me to be COGOP's fault. It is something that churches all around are trying to grasp, and some of them have been honest in trying to do something to address it and have surely gone to excesses in programming elements. I'd rather them try and flub it with too many lasers than to fold their arms and bemoan the plight, though even if they're misguided. There's a better chance of getting something right if you're trying, I think, even if it means getting some things (maybe most things) wrong when it comes to framing up the "how we do it" part of church life.

[Pastor Gary]

Pastorbps, what you described about people being "me" centered is not particularly a COGOP thing. It is everywhere. It is THE prevalent characteristic of the culture.

I'll be delving into this very concept for the next 10 weeks. I just started reading "The McDonaldization of the Church: Consumer Culture and the Church's Future" by John Drane. Professor Drane will be my instructor for TC500: Theology and Culture and he deals extensively with the current consumerist mentality and its impact upon the praxis and theology of the church today.

[Pastorbps]

I agree this attitude is not distinctive to the COGOP.
What concerns me more than the fact we are doing these things to reach the "Me" generation is the fact they "Demand" it. "If you want my attendance, you have to earn it by making sure I am entertained and comfortable (spiritually & physically)."
Here's the thing. Churches (especially the COGOP) used to exist as separate entities because they believed they were unique on a doctrinal level. Their names said something about their doctrinal distinctives. People were asked to attend and be loyal to their church because they agreed with it doctrinally. Now, we have preached a unity that ignores doctrinal differences and we have taught our young people to ignore doctrinal differences.
What is the result?
The younger generation now chooses a church based upon how the church markets itself. What does that church have to offer ME? Churches have responded by developing supply and demand marketing strategies. It has become a competition for attendees. We have bigger and better this and that. It is blatant commercialization.

Names no longer say anything about the doctrinal position of a church because people aren't looking for a church based upon doctrine.
The danger should be apparent. Does the doctrinal positions of a church ever matter?
Do we cross the line and make our church so commercially appealing and cheap that it becomes meaningless?
What if the world demands a gospel which doesn't make them uncomfortable? Do we supply that?
People now attend churches for what that church offers instead of what they can offer the church.
People know nothing of "DUTY, RESPONSIBILITY, SELF DENIAL, AND SACRIFICE" all of which require one to do what is right even if it is difficult.
Ours is not to supply what the world demands but what the world needs.
"Am I now the servant of men or the servant of God."

Incidentally, if we appeal to young people on a carnal level, we will lose that battle. Satan can always offer them a greater opportunities to gratify self.

[paul]

Pastorbps, what you described about people being "me" centered is not particularly a COGOP thing. It is everywhere. It is THE prevalent characteristic of the culture.

I'll be delving into this very concept for the next 10 weeks. I just started reading "The McDonaldization of the Church: Consumer Culture and the Church's Future" by John Drane. Professor Drane will be my instructor for TC500: Theology and Culture and he deals extensively with the current consumerist mentality and its impact upon the praxis and theology of the church today.

I hope and trust that he will cover the positive aspects of the McDonaldlization of the church. When Ray Kroch first came to San Bernardion and met with the two McDonald Bros. He came not with any stragety, not with demographic. But a gut intutition. What would take place was a paradigm shift in the food industry and the setting of a standard of cleanliness, quality and service.

A concept that one could go to any McDonalds in America and expect the same standard of cleanliness, quality and service. Without question it worked.

Remember a few years ago when McDonalds had their first quarted loss and were struggeling for the first time. They began a review and realized that their emphisis had been on marketing and failed to maintain the standard of quality that had built their empire.

A Denomination is not very different. There needs to be a standard that each of the churchs maintain. A person within that organization should be able to go to any one of their chuurches and expect the same quality of doctrine, beliefs, and purpose.

History tells us that where ever a McDonalds is built it automatically has a built in Clientell because of Name Recognition. But, one must also remember that the name may bring them, but it is the quality, standard and service that will keep them coming back. It that is not maintained there is always a Wendy's or Burger King down the street or even next door.

Also there is room for individual idenity and reaching out to those in your own culture. In the Philippines you go and order McRice...Mc Spagettie because those are staples in those countries..In India it is a McVeggie burger....In Germany at some yoou can get your glass of beer with you burger.

Not all is bad, its a matter of how you see it and how you approach it and what your goal is.

[Phil Hoover]

1) What caused the hemorrhaging in the first place?

2) Why did an entire generation find "other pastures"?

3) How can this be prevented from happening again, if it is indeed preventable?

4) Why did the COGOP lose an entire generation---most of them with a long history/heritage in the denomination?

[dolfan]

Phil, I'm not sure that COGOP "lost" them, really. Not in the sense that COGOP did something or failed to do something and that people looked at it and said, "Well, you've lost me."

Now, before you laugh at me, hear me out. I know people said, "Well, you've lost me." I said it myself. But, truthfully, COGOP could never become what all of its people wanted it to be (and, maybe that's still true). The inertia of its own history carried it right over the changes that some wanted until the energy of that movement ran out. Why should COGOP be charged with not anticipating that? Moreover, the purpose of the organization could never attract or keep people who were understandably drawn to other churches. People simply came to understand that being a Christian can happen outside COGOP and that there is nothing to lose by doing that. No loss of relationship with God or others, no loss of some perceived specialness in God's Big Plan For Us. Some people, in short, simply liked better what they saw somewhere else (which takes me back to "people do what they want to do"). My own departure wasn't COGOP's fault, even if I blamed it then. I was going in one direction, COGOP (as I understood it then) was going in another one, and there was a parting of ways.

Let me ask you this with all due respect and seriousness: Might it be that all those "lost" people from COGOP simply did what they wanted? Might it be that they simply saw what God was doing somewhere else that drew them to that? And, if COGOP was not then doing that very thing, is that necessarily a fault? Could it be that COGOP's own trajectory to where it is now was right where it should've been, under the circumstances, and that it can pick up where it is today and move forward? Is it necessary that those like you and me, who are no longer inside that group, should have to come to some closure or resolution about why we left? Can't we just understand that we did leave and keep walking toward the same Lord?

[PastorP]

Phil, I'm not sure that COGOP "lost" them, really. Not in the sense that COGOP did something or failed to do something and that people looked at it and said, "Well, you've lost me."

Is it necessary that those like you and me, who are no longer inside that group, should have to come to some closure or resolution about why we left? Can't we just understand that we did leave and keep walking toward the same Lord?

THANK YOU!!!!! Yes, I am yelling this out!

[Phil Hoover]

about a church college, the senior leadership may want to answer some very fundamental questions about the last 25 years in the denomination..

A church college is MEGA-expensive....and no need to make the same mistake twice...

That is the reason for my questions....

[DeWayneTN]

So thankful that I serve a God of unlimited resources.