Hey scholars

[Poimen]

This actions were taken so that the man could devote himself entirely to God.

No, not really. Physically maimed eunuchs were made that way either to watch over women, or serve a pagan idol. Physical eunuchry is not nor has it ever been a part of the worship or service to our God. BC or AD. The people who have chosen/been called to serve our God by celibate living are not physically altered. I've been celibate since 1986 and believe me, it' not due to physical inability or lack of desire not to be.

While your point is duly noted, there have been Christian men who have willingly castrated themselves in service to God (i.e. Augustine). Whether such is proper or not is a different matter I suppose, but it is nevertheless a fact.

[rough_rider]

Guy starts out male. Gets surgically switched... hormones, breasts, genitalia are now all female. Dresses like a woman, acts female, goes by a female name.

Now - that person gets saved.

Can "she" attend the Ladies' Retreat, or do you encourage "her" to man up and go on the guys' hunting/camping trip? God said he would give them "a memorial and a name better than sons and daughters" but how does that work in practical terms?

One of the conditions of that promise in Isaiah is to choose the things that please God. God made him a man and all the surgery's in the world does not change that. So I would say no to the "Ladies Retreat". He may not feel like going on a hunting or even a camping trip and I would not have an issue with that, but a Ladies Retreat would be out. I would think if he was really saved that would mean he would be willing to do whatever to please God. One thing is for sure, if this were a real case it would be a situation that would have to be handled with lots of prayer and lots of TLC.

[pastorables]

Fa'afafine is a third gender specific to Samoan culture.
Fa'afafine are biologically men who in childhood choose by their nature to be raised to assume female gender roles, which is not discouraged in the traditional fa'asamoa (Samoan society). The word fa'afafine includes the causative prefix "fa'a", meaning "in the manner of", and the word "fafine", meaning "woman"; and it is cognate with other Polynesian languages like the Tongan "fakafefine" or "fakaleiti", the Maori "whakawahine" or "akava'ine" in Cook Islands Maori, and the Hawaiian "mahu". Samoan slang mala or gay for fa'afafine is in less use being an abject derivation from the Samoan bible.

Pastor Gary,

How do the Fa'afafine or similar cultural issues enter this discussion or does it?

pa

[Pastor Gary]

Fa'afafine is a third gender specific to Samoan culture.
Fa'afafine are biologically men who in childhood choose by their nature to be raised to assume female gender roles, which is not discouraged in the traditional fa'asamoa (Samoan society). The word fa'afafine includes the causative prefix "fa'a", meaning "in the manner of", and the word "fafine", meaning "woman"; and it is cognate with other Polynesian languages like the Tongan "fakafefine" or "fakaleiti", the Maori "whakawahine" or "akava'ine" in Cook Islands Maori, and the Hawaiian "mahu". Samoan slang mala or gay for fa'afafine is in less use being an abject derivation from the Samoan bible.

Pastor Gary,

How do the Fa'afafine or similar cultural issues enter this discussion or does it?

Fa‘afafine/Mahu in Polynesian cultures are not transsexuals... at least not usually. The origins of fa‘afafine are the strict societal norms of ancient Polynesian culture in which there are strong divisions between "men's work" and "women's work" that are not to be crossed. If a family was blessed with all male children, there would be lots of "women's work" left undone, so the family would simply designate a very young male child to be a fa‘afafine -- in the way of a female -- and raise and treat the child just as if he were a little girl in every way... except for the obvious male physical characteristics, which are not altered. Remember, however, polynesian males typically wear lava-lava (looks like a wrap-around skirt) so it's not just a matter of clothing.

[Full Quiver]

Biblical eunuchs did not have sex changes. That surgery was not possible during Isiah's time. All people can be saved though regardless of their past.

[scooter]

Biblical eunuchs did not have sex changes. That surgery was not possible during Isiah's time. All people can be saved though regardless of their past.

Response: Watch for the roof to fall in but I agree.

A person who vows never to have sex again in honor to God and takes steps to insure that practice should not have been equated to he/she perverted sexual practices.

That being said, anyone can be saved, however sometimes the choices we make before we are saved come with lasting consequence.

How that the church deals with transgendered converts is an interesting question by itself.

[Mike Vande]

While your point is duly noted, there have been Christian men who have willingly castrated themselves in service to God (i.e. Augustine). Whether such is proper or not is a different matter I suppose, but it is nevertheless a fact.

Yes, but such were aberrations, and, understandably, quite uncommon. The removal of any organ(s) to facilitate greater consecration or service to God is not a practice that could be categorized as canonical or under the pale of orthodoxy.

I only recall one reference to castration in the New Testament. That was Galatians 5:12, Paul, in reference to the Judaisers who were telling the Galatians they needed to be circumcised if they wanted to be "real" Christians, wrote;
As for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves!

It doesn't seem to me like Paul is advocating emasculation there...

[MacUser]

Ouch.

[Full Quiver]

Never look at that verse in that way Mike. I always read it as Paul was saying I wish they were cut off as in not a group of people that we need be bothered with any longer.

[forestwalker]

I stumbled upon a phrase I had never noticed before and it made me go hmmmmmm...

Isaiah 56
4 For this is what the LORD says:
"To the eunuchs who keep my Sabbaths,
who choose what pleases me
and hold fast to my covenant-

5 to them I will give within my temple and its walls
a memorial and a name
better than sons and daughters;
I will give them an everlasting name
that will not be cut off.

That's from the NIV, but it's about the same idea in other versions.

Based upon your understanding of this passage, what does this say about transsexuals finding the Lord and serving Him? How would that work out in your local church context?

I'm missing the connection to transsexuals in the passage. Eunuchs in the ancient world were nearly all made so involuntarily. The sin against their personhood is clear to us but, to them, the denial of the ability to have children--which was everything to the ancients, think of stories referring to barren women--was the far greater loss. That's the context the passage is speaking to. God is promising that, though they have no seed, in Him their name will be preserved.

But perhaps the passage was just meant to be a segue to discuss ministry to transsexuals. Some of the responses so far miss the mark. Transsexualism is usually the result of very deep spiritual/psychological injury and is not a chosen sexual perversion/lifestyle. Transsexualism is not about sex, really, and most are celibate. Ministry to them is less like ministry to homosexuals or fornicators and more like ministry to rape/abuse/war victims, schizophrenics/bipolars, or deeply depressed persons. The difference, of course, is that compassion for them and overcoming the revulsion/fear are more difficult.

[MacUser]

I'm missing the connection to transsexuals in the passage. Eunuchs in the ancient world were nearly all made so involuntarily. The sin against their personhood is clear to us but, to them, the denial of the ability to have children--which was everything to the ancients, think of stories referring to barren women--was the far greater loss. That's the context the passage is speaking to. God is promising that, though they have no seed, in Him their name will be preserved.

Very good.


Now back off topic. If you appoint one would the community call it a token?


First Transgender Presidential Appointee Fears Being Labeled 'Token'
http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/amanda-s ... id=9477161

[Pastor Gary]

Eunuchs in the ancient world were nearly all made so involuntarily.

Please cite an authoritative source for that. Thanks.

[MacUser]

Eunuchs in the ancient world were nearly all made so involuntarily.

Please cite an authoritative source for that. Thanks.

New Living Translation : Matthew 19:12
Some are born as eunuchs, some have been made eunuchs by others, and some choose not to marry for the sake of the Kingdom of Heaven. Let anyone accept this who can."


Not my dog.. but I just seen this scripture reference to Eunuch's made by "others". So it's 1/3 chance? Thank you Jesus for allowing me to escape this.

[Pastor Gary]

Eunuchs in the ancient world were nearly all made so involuntarily.

Please cite an authoritative source for that. Thanks.

New Living Translation : Matthew 19:12
Some are born as eunuchs, some have been made eunuchs by others, and some choose not to marry for the sake of the Kingdom of Heaven. Let anyone accept this who can."


Not my dog.. but I just seen this scripture reference to Eunuch's made by "others". Thank you Jesus for allowing me to escape this.

That says some are BORN that way (created by God that way?) and others made eunuchs by others -- but doesn't suggest involuntarily so.

[MacUser]

That says some are BORN that way (created by God that way?) and others made eunuchs by others -- but doesn't suggest involuntarily so.

In the NIV.. I thought this phrase was key. "have been made eunuchs by others". Other translations may differ, everyone can read and decide here.

I'm ok with being born that way. God created "retarded, limbless, blind, [insert disfunction here] people" also... Jesus healed them and when we can't... we help them, offer specific encouraging functions in society. Not praise it, demonize it, or celebrate it etc... just accept it and use as well as possible.