Is it a SIN???

[Russell Roberts]

Ok, that's fair. But whoever wrote that ridiculous explanation needs to be aware that the Master of Ceremonies who was actually AT the feast, directly contradicts him.

and said to him, “Everyone serves the good wine first, and then the cheaper wine when the guests are drunk. You have kept the good wine until now!”

Who do you think was more familiar with their customs? The Steward of the Feast or the guy that wrote that asinine explanation?

[dawgs10]

Ok, that's fair. But whoever wrote that ridiculous explanation needs to be aware that the Master of Ceremonies who was actually AT the feast, directly contradicts him.

and said to him, “Everyone serves the good wine first, and then the cheaper wine when the guests are drunk. You have kept the good wine until now!”

Who do you think was more familiar with their customs? The Steward of the Feast or the guy that wrote that asinine explanation?

the correct interpretation would be and after everyone had drunk freely. not, and after everyone was drunk. again i can drink something with a trace of alcohol and not get drunk for a long period of time.

[Russell Roberts]

Want to take a look at the Greek text?

[beckrl]

dawgs10
You bring many vaild point to this discussion.

The best would be served first then as it continues they would water down the wine. but as we see Christ maded the best wine last.
I take that to mean it wasn't water down. I don't think that was a matter of alcohol if it was just maded.

2 cents.

[Russell Roberts]

I copied and pasted this but I would be interested in hearing your argument against it.

Now I am looking all of this up in the original greek text so as to try and get the true meaning here. Those words come from a greek word "methusthosin". The greek root word here is "methuo". In Vines Expository Dictionary the first translation is-"to be drunk, is used in John 2:10 in the Passive Voice, and is translated in the P.V.,"have drunk freely"; A.V. "have well drunk". Vines then goes on to clarify the matter by again translating the greek root word "mathuo" and defining it-"signifies to be drunk with wine". It is used to indicate becoming intoxicated in Matt 24:49; Acts 2:15; 1 Cor 11:21; 1 Thess 5:7. The Passive Voice used above indicates that the men who were intoxicated (drunk) were becoming more so.

[Russell Roberts]

I'm wondering why Paul didn't want Timothy to appoint leaders who drank too much Welch's also. Could you explain that?

[dawgs10]

Want to take a look at the Greek text?

John 2:10 Greek Study Bible (Apostolic/Interlinear) states the word Methusthosin means They drank much. it does not say anything about being drunk.

[Russell Roberts]

The implication is that they were getting drunk.

What would this have to do with important people visiting the feast?

Or have you abandoned that argument?

[Russell Roberts]

The length that people like you go to in order to find sin where there is none will never cease to amaze me. It hasn't yet anyhow. You will twist scripture to fit your doctrine instead of deriving meaning from the text and forming your doctrine around that.

If you don't want to drink, don't. But don't try to twist the bible in order to support your personal conviction.

[dawgs10]

The length that people like you go to in order to find sin where there is none will never cease to amaze me. It hasn't yet anyhow. You will twist scripture to fit your doctrine instead of deriving meaning from the text and forming your doctrine around that.

If you don't want to drink, don't. But don't try to twist the bible in order to support your personal conviction.

Also, the Genevieve study Bible says this in commentary, To be drunken, does not always refer to being drunk in the evil sense in the Hebrew language, but signifies an abundant plentiful use of wine. (alcoholic or not.)
i am not leaving my original stance only saying that your interpretation is wide open for debate.

[dawgs10]

The implication is that they were getting drunk.

What would this have to do with important people visiting the feast?

Or have you abandoned that argument?

the implication is not that they were getting drunk. it is implying they were drinking alot of what they had. watered down grape juice with a small amount of alcohol to purify the drink.

i can drink grape juice all day and not get drunk. therefore the implication is grape juice must not have alcohol or not enough to make me drunk.

[Poimen]

I copied and pasted this but I would be interested in hearing your argument against it.

Now I am looking all of this up in the original greek text so as to try and get the true meaning here. Those words come from a greek word "methusthosin". The greek root word here is "methuo". In Vines Expository Dictionary the first translation is-"to be drunk, is used in John 2:10 in the Passive Voice, and is translated in the P.V.,"have drunk freely"; A.V. "have well drunk". Vines then goes on to clarify the matter by again translating the greek root word "mathuo" and defining it-"signifies to be drunk with wine". It is used to indicate becoming intoxicated in Matt 24:49; Acts 2:15; 1 Cor 11:21; 1 Thess 5:7. The Passive Voice used above indicates that the men who were intoxicated (drunk) were becoming more so.

Assuming you are correct on the meaning of "well drunk", and assuming Christ did indeed make fermented wine (as you intimate), then Christ became a participator in the sin of drunkenness & is proven a false prophet and a fake.

I'll keep the sinless son of God. You can have the wine-bibbing homie.

[Russell Roberts]

Poimen do you have some kind of radar or something?

BTW, the Pharisees called him a winebibber. I wonder why?

Who is playing what role here Christopher?

[Poimen]

Poimen do you have some kind of radar or something?

BTW, the Pharisees called him a winebibber. I wonder why?

Who is playing what role here Christopher?

I'm not calling him a winebibber. I'm saying to make Christ complicate in a drunken party is to make Him a winebibber and the minister of sin. Whatever one's views on the permissibleness of alcohol, when that view contradicts the teaching on the nature and person of Christ it is patently wrong.

[Russell Roberts]

Poimen,

I guess then, since God equipped us with certain anatomical features that might be misused, he is complicit with sin? Give me a break brother.