Is it a SIN???

[Russell Roberts]

Thanks Poimen.

[dawgs10]

it is amazing that i posted a greek interpretation and commentary from trusted sources and was ignored. the fact is in your opinion you can consume alcohol. ok, what ever. but the passages you have used concentrating on the wedding feast does not line up with most commentary and most greek interpretation. if you want to drink be my guest, i choose to be sober when Jesus comes back. Also you are starting at the wrong word. the whole word is Methusthosin. which literaly means THEY DRANK MUCH.

[Russell Roberts]

Dawgs, I looked at the Strong's number for that ROOT word and showed you every place in the N.T. where the word occurs. They take different forms but I am no expert in Greek in terms of tense, mood, voice, etc.

On every occasion of the use of that word the word is translated as drunk. Don't you think it is even a little bit suspect that you want to give it a different meaning in the single verse that could conceivably be used to support the notion that the WINE Jesus produced was non-alcoholic?

Was it only partial wine but mostly water because what Jesus was really doing was purifying the water that the disciples poured into the stone vessels? That makes no sense brother.

[Poimen]

IMHO God didnt tell those wedding party goers to get drunk any more than He told "joe" to smoke a fatty.

Your quote above continues the error in logic that Russell proposes. You are effectively inserting Christ's provision before (or separate from) any abuse. But the fact is, based on Russell's explanation of "well drunk", Christ is furnishing an abundance of the best (& certainly intoxicating) wine for those already drunk and continuing in their excessive consumption.

To make your analogy fitting with Russell's explanation of this miracle we would have to have Jesus filling up a plethora of empty dime bags so the pot heads could keep on toking, passing, and hitting that "fatty".

And that my friend makes Jesus the minister of sin, and is absolutely an untenable position for believers.. So, whether Russell is right or not on moderate consumption, he is certainly wrong on the interpretation of this passage and in using it to prop up his position.

[dawgs10]

Dawgs, I looked at the Strong's number for that ROOT word and showed you every place in the N.T. where the word occurs. They take different forms but I am no expert in Greek in terms of tense, mood, voice, etc.

On every occasion of the use of that word the word is translated as drunk. Don't you think it is even a little bit suspect that you want to give it a different meaning in the single verse that could conceivably be used to support the notion that the WINE Jesus produced was non-alcoholic?

Was it only partial wine but mostly water because what Jesus was really doing was purifying the water that the disciples poured into the stone vessels? That makes no sense brother.

again, strongs interpetation conflicts with th Greek Study Bible (Apostolic/Interlinear) and also conflicts with 12 versions of scripture that i have looked at and hundreds of commentary. you are beginning in the wrong direction of the word.

[Russell Roberts]

Dawgs, would the name 'Apostolic' clue you in to the slight possibility that they might just be A LITTLE BIT BIASED?

And are you trying to pretend that you have looked at 'hundreds' of commentaries on that particular verse?

Is that what you are trying to pretend?

[dawgs10]

Dawgs, would the name 'Apostolic' clue you in to the slight possibility that they might just be A LITTLE BIT BIASED?

not unlike you on this matter!

[Russell Roberts]

Every one is biased. Everyone.

There is no such thing as an unbiased perspective. But as far as understanding the meaning of Greek words I think Strong's is a wee bit more trustworthy than an apostolic interlinear bible.

[Russell Roberts]

Now back to your statement about the hundreds of commentary's.

Would you mind listing a mere fifty of them?

[dawgs10]

Every one is biased. Everyone.

There is no such thing as an unbiased perspective. But as far as understanding the meaning of Greek words I think Strong's is a wee bit more trustworthy than an apostolic interlinear bible.

definition of Apostolic- relating to or deriving from the Apostles or their teachings. humm........ sounds like the new testament.

[dawgs10]

Now back to your statement about the hundreds of commentary's.

Would you mind listing a mere fifty of them?

.
i will type out atleast ten tonight. the rest will have to wait.

[scooter]

Scooter, I'm just curious, as a Christian, has it ever crossed your mind that you should forgive not just me, but your enemies? Or does what really makes someone holy just consist in not drinking a beer?

Response: Sure it has. I forgave you in the fact that I didn't look you up.

Should a shepherd forgive a wolf?

Is it in line with Biblical mandate to mark them which cause division? Or do we just forgive and ignore their behavior.

Brothers don't tempt others or flaunt liberties which might cause another to stumble or at least they shouldn't.

Forgive? Sure. I won't mention it again. Consider yourself forgiven, even though you didn't blink, to my knowledge, at calling me a liar over saying Jesus was not a winebibber or a drunk, or that there were different kinds of wine, or that wine was a common/staple beverage of Biblical times.

Allow you to go unchecked in your crusade to equate all who teach Biblical moderation or abstention to Pharisees? Never.

[Russell Roberts]

Dawgs, are you sure that the apostolic bible is not a UPC related translation? I'm doing a little research on it now.

Apostolic, in the popular use of the word, doesn't have to do with the TWELVE, make that THIRTEEN original Apostles.

Here is a link to an Apostolic Bible site. Check out the beehives. LOL

http://www.apostolic.org/

I'm not sure if these guys are related. If so, it explains their error.

[dawgs10]

Dawgs, are you sure that the apostolic bible is not a UPC related translation? I'm doing a little research on it now.

Apostolic, in the popular use of the word, doesn't have to do with the TWELVE, make that THIRTEEN original Apostles.

Here is a link to an Apostolic Bible site. Check out the beehives. LOL

http://www.apostolic.org/

I'm not sure if these guys are related. If so, it explains their error.

here goes, Darby Bible Translation,
Douray-Rhelms
Geneva Study Bible
Peoples New Testament
Wesleys Notes
Matthew Henrys Whole Bible
Young's Literal Translation
Word English
Websters Bible Translation
Greek Study Bible
Apostolic Bible Polyglot Interlinear.

all translates to have well drunk.
not intoxicated.

and no, the link you have posted is not where i am getting my information. it is taken from this and more.

[Russell Roberts]

Scooter, I have always advocated a position of moderation.