Is it a SIN???

[one love]

onelove,

I'm starting to like you.

But I don't think that we will reach a point of agreement on this issue.

Where did you go to college?

I like you to Brother Please re read my post I edited and added more. I would love to keep discussing this with you. I am not condemning you please do not take that from my post. I am just giving you my point of view I mean no disrespect friend

[dawgs10]

Sober as in...not drunk?

according to the commentary i mentioned. yes as in not drunk. keeping in mind 1 drink makes you 1 drink more drunk than you were before you consumed it.

[Russell Roberts]

Dawgs and onelove,

My dad has a saying. I try to live by it. "A man convinced against his will, is of the same opinion still."

I have presented the theology that underlies my position, you have presented the theology underlying your position. I have presented my arguments, you have presented your arguments. I have not been convinced by your arguments, you have not been convinced by my arguments.

My position, stated once more for the record is this. Beer or any other alcoholic beverage or any substance, for that matter, is not evil. Nor is the moderate use of that substance inherently sinful. Should moderate consumption violate your conscience, by all means, abstain. You have done what you believe is pleasing to God and I applaud you for doing so.

By the same token, there are those whose consciences are not violated by partaking of various substances in moderation. They too are servants of God who do what they also believe is pleasing to God.

We have the same Master. We are both his servants. You and I will both answer to Him for our actions. In the meantime, hopefully, by God's grace, I will refrain from judging you as you refrain from condemning me, as Paul taught in Romans 14.

Having said that, I don't think I have ever taken vicoden. I have taken hydracodone after kidney transplant surgery, after an appendectomy, and on one or two other occasions when I was in extreme pain. I quickly recognized the addictive nature of the drug and choose to abstain.

[dawgs10]

russel, not trying to change your mind. just providing as much information as possible to show you that those that are teaching zero alcohol has alot to stand on. its not made up. lots of documented proof why we say no booze intake.

[rough_rider]

I like to think of myself as being like the Psalmist who gave worship to God for the

104:14 He provides grass for the cattle,
and crops for people to cultivate,
so they can produce food from the ground,
104:15 as well as wine that makes people feel so good,
and so they can have oil to make their faces shine,
as well as food that sustains people’s lives.

Amen.

That kinda reminds me of back in the day when I used a verse in Genesis to justify smoking weed...."And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed"

[Russell Roberts]

I like to think of myself as being like the Psalmist who gave worship to God for the

104:14 He provides grass for the cattle,
and crops for people to cultivate,
so they can produce food from the ground,
104:15 as well as wine that makes people feel so good,
and so they can have oil to make their faces shine,
as well as food that sustains people’s lives.

Amen.

That kinda reminds me of back in the day when I used a verse in Genesis to justify smoking weed...."And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed"

[Russell Roberts]

Thanks Dawg for the information I will give it due consideration.

[Brian]

I am saying -- on balance -- the consumption of alcohol creates more human misery, degradation, violence, promiscuity, heartbreak and general chaos than the sensual, temporal pleasures you allude to. If the consumption of alcohol was eliminated from society, there would be 2,000,000 people less killed in automobile accidents ANNUALLY, 3.5% of all cancer deaths would be eliminated, 2/3 of all intimate-relationship violence would be eliminated, 28% of all child suicides would be no more, and 480,000 child abuse instances annually would be eliminated... unless they were all just buzzed and not really drunk.

I'll drink to that!

Pastor Gary, I know as well as anyone that the "temporal pleasures" that are sometimes a result from drinking (and drug use) can lead to some devastating effects to life and limb and to a family. I know this because I have been in the trenches, literally. But you should be aware of the human condition and the stain of sin in the heart of man that even if alcohol was removed from the mix of life it would only be replaced by a different set of vices to still reek havoc on the human soul. Sin and it's devastating effects on mankind with all those disappointing statistics you sited would still be there even if you removed every drop of alcohol and every sort of intoxicating drug on the face of this planet. That would happen because sin is born from within the heart of a man and not necessarily because of external influences.

Thats why you can have one man commit murder while under the influence of alcohol and another do it even though he may have been a lifelong minister in the church. Same can be said for sexual deviants, molesters, rapists, pedophiles, and all manner of sadistic behaviors.

Mankind needs something (someone,..... Christ) far more than we need the fermentation process to go away.

[Brian]

The fact is russel you have went to alot of trouble to defend something that is not defend-able. all this act does even in moderation is to destroy lives and support companies that pray on those that are addicted to it. you failed to prove john 2 supports people were drunk. i did prove that the majority of all bibles and commentaries do not support your view. only a handful tends to lean in the direction that they were drunk and the majority does not. you sir may try to defend a life style that is not pleasing to God if you must. that's your right as a human being with free will. we are told to be filled with the spirit and refrain from hard drink. end of discussion. keep drinking your wine. i think instead i will be filled with new wine and stay away from the old.

dawgs, your position is also an in your face, flaunting position. when you make statements like "you can have your wine, I'll have the spirit", that is very condescending because your insinuation is that Russell is choosing wine over God's Holy Spirit, which is ridiculous. I don't always agree with Russell, even in this very thread, however I don't believe he is doing what you imply.

[Full Quiver]

You may not be able to smoke it Rough Rider but you can Biblically eat it.

[Russell Roberts]

You may not be able to smoke it Rough Rider but you can Biblically eat it.

[one love]

You may not be able to smoke it Rough Rider but you can Biblically eat it.

okay that was hilarious


Russell I appreciate the conversation. I enjoyed it. BTW Hydrocodone is generic for vicodin. I have had to take it in the past as well because of My neck/back surgeries etc..
I went to a technology school for college, ECPI and was a couple months from my degree and I left and started my first flooring business at 21 years old. Sorry I missed that question.

I hope I did not offend you at all, I was really not trying to. I was just trying to give my position so you could ujavascript:emoticon(':lol:')nderstand. If I did feel it would be ok to drink I still would not because of the alcohol issues I had years back.
I love ya and meant no disrespect.

ROUGH RIDER I USED THE SAME ARGUMENT Many times......hahahahha
With that said it should be legalized at least for medical use. Doctors could get a lot of cancer patients off of opiates/pain meds and these cancer patients could have a appetite through chemo...

[Russell Roberts]

onelove,

We're good brother!

Sometimes we have to just agree to disagree without being disagreeable. It helps me to try to understand where someone else is coming from. I have given this a lot of thought lately. Paul encouraged his readers to have the mind of Christ.

This has a lot of fascinating aspects to it. I think about how God tried to relate to humanity. He made himself understandable to them but he also was able to understand what it meant to be human, to be tempted, to suffer. He became part of his own creation at a specific point in time, lived within a specific culture, and spoke their language.

Wouldn't it be nice if we could imitate this kind of condescension? Suppose that, through empathy, I submerse myself into your worldview...try to understand things from your perspective. Had I lived your life, I might or might not hold the same views as yourself.

At a minimum though, I should try to understand where you are coming from (as Jesus did) and speak your language (as Jesus did). This has helped me in learning to relate to others. As I see it, part of our job as Christians is to bear the pain of the world in ourselves as Jesus did. How else can we do this unless it is through the kind of empathy Jesus demonstrated through his condescension?

Just thinking out loud a little...

Anyhow, bless you brother. I have thoroughly enjoyed our dialogue. I look forward to more in the future.