Haitian curse

[Poimen]

The reality is there are powers, principalities, and spiritual wickedness in high places that interfere, influence and involve themselves in the affairs of men. The reality is nature does bad things because man sinned. The reality is God can and does use nature and human history to effect his own purposes -- including judgment.

The fact is, we can't know for sure what all may or may not have been part of the earthquake, but it is not unreasonable that divine retribution could b e in the mix.

Nevertheless, disaster happens, and that is judgment and consequence for sin enough. And, God's mercy and grace find an opportunity in this to show love to our fellow man. Behold the goodness and the severity of God!

[Paully_44]

A very good response to Pats babble.

[Brandon Bowers]

The reality is there are powers, principalities, and spiritual wickedness in high places that interfere, influence and involve themselves in the affairs of men.

How do they do this? What specific things do they do? How do they manifest?

[Russell Roberts]

Brandon, apparently, they have spent considerable time pushing one tectonic plate into another. Principalities and powers are known to do this kind of thing. Sometimes they also control nature by whipping up a hurricane in the gulf like they did a few years back when Katrina hit a large group of Christians on the Gulf Coast of Mississippi.

That's the thing about principalities and powers. They like to destroy good people along with evil ones. It's kinda weird if you think about it. Your damned if you are righteous and damned if you are evil. Either way, you can blame natural weather phenomena on either a demon or God. So, take your pick. I guess it depends on whether they are rich white people or poor black people.

[Brian]

Brandon, apparently, they have spent considerable time pushing one tectonic plate into another. Principalities and powers are known to do this kind of thing. Sometimes they also control nature by whipping up a hurricane in the gulf like they did a few years back when Katrina hit a large group of Christians on the Gulf Coast of Mississippi.

That's the thing about principalities and powers. They like to destroy good people along with evil ones. It's kinda weird if you think about it. Your damned if you are righteous and damned if you are evil. Either way, you can blame natural weather phenomena on either a demon or God. So, take your pick. I guess it depends on whether they are rich white people or poor black people.

Russell, it is not some abstract distant far off thing that has brought evil, death, sin, and destruction to this world it is US. You and I, mankind individually, collectively as a people have brought this death and fallen world, not just the sin of Adam.

(This might seem odd but I just wanted to add a thought here: one man digging a whole in the middle of a field may not have so great an impact, while a million men will totally devastate the field to the point of utter destruction.)

I don't claim to know the dynamics of the inner workings of a fallen planet but to think that we each don't bare some responsibility is to not be looking at the bigger picture. And because of that sin sometimes good people do in fact pay the ultimate price. Sickness in body isn't the only effects felt by the world (also the believer) that we are in a fallen world.

Now don't take me wrong, I'm not saying that every time a tree or building falls on someone that it's God striking them down. I know better than that. But the way your seeming to elude to that God created the earth (some 4 billion yrs ago or there about) and He just put it all in motion and left the stage (so to speak) for the world to just fend for itself.
God has always been actively involved in the lives of His creation, to think that He is just setting on the sidelines while a cat.5 hurricane rips a baby from it's mothers hands and He's just like , ahhh dang, sorry little dude.... come on man. God's sovereign will is more than my mind can grasp, but I'm ok with that.

[Russell Roberts]

Brian,

Your comment was quite impressive. Seriously. You have made an excellent point in noting that God did not simply set things in motion then sit back and watch the world go by. He is no absentee landlord. That would be a Deist view of God and I am certainly no Deist.

He is indeed active in his creation. Heaven interlocks and overlaps with earth in various ways. What happened in Haiti though was simply a natural disaster. It was the result of the tectonic plates which comprise the earth's mantle pressing against each other. The pressure continued to build until one plate slipped against another.

The fact that I have explained this event in natural terms doesn't undermine the idea that God is indeed actively involved in his creation. How could it be claimed that a God who would become a man and die for his creation be uninvolved in it?

But neither does the fact that God is sovereign undermine the obvious fact that he has set various natural processes in motion which sometimes result in catastrophes such as the one in Haiti and the events of Katrina.

I propose that to simply attribute all such natural phenomenon to divine intervention by God is not good theology. I will work on a better answer but in the meantime some of God's interaction in his creation are quite obvious. The call of Abraham, the formation of Israel, the incarnation, and the actions God performs through us are good examples.

[Russell Roberts]

that-other-forum-that-shall-remain-nameless

[Brian]

I'm not sure what happened to my comment.

LOL that is a long story! LOL but when you type in the word "e.n.t.e.r.a.c.t.s" the phase which was in your post comes up. LOL

[Russell Roberts]

Brian, I modified my comments to get rid of it. That was weird.

[Brian]

deleted

oh, just wanted to say that I don't disagree with what you have said, it very likely may be nothing more than heat and pressure and moving rocks and some unfortunite timing and bad real estate location and it just served as a terrible mix. Just saying that the idea of prescribing human sin and behaviour as a possible role in the mix of life and justice may not be such a hair brained idea.

[Russell Roberts]

Brian, I don't think so at all. But I'm pretty sure from some things that Jesus said that we just can't always tell what is going on. His comments about the tower that fell and the man born blind are what I have in mind.

[pastorables]

I propose that to simply attribute all such natural phenomenon to divine intervention by God is not good theology. I will work on a better answer but in the meantime some of God's interaction in his creation are quite obvious. The call of Abraham, the formation of Israel, the incarnation, and the actions God performs through us are good examples.

What about "The Flood" of Genesis? What about the "fire" over Sodom and Gomorrah? What about the "earthquake" when Paul and Silas were in prison?

I'm sure there are other examples, but I'm just making a quick point that God does use the natural elements to accomplish his divine will.

Now, concerning Pat Robertson, the timing of the comment was extremely poor and without forethought of consequences. Nevertheless, from my limited study, it does appear the event (the devil's pact) he was trying to allude to actually occurred and can be documented by historical authorities and college professors, etc.

pa

[one love]

I propose that to simply attribute all such natural phenomenon to divine intervention by God is not good theology. I will work on a better answer but in the meantime some of God's interaction in his creation are quite obvious. The call of Abraham, the formation of Israel, the incarnation, and the actions God performs through us are good examples.

What about "The Flood" of Genesis? What about the "fire" over Sodom and Gomorrah? What about the "earthquake" when Paul and Silas were in prison?

I'm sure there are other examples, but I'm just making a quick point that God does use the natural elements to accomplish his divine will.

Now, concerning Pat Robertson, the timing of the comment was extremely poor and without forethought of consequences. Nevertheless, from my limited study, it does appear the event (the devil's pact) he was trying to allude to actually occurred and can be documented by historical authorities and college professors, etc.

pa

great post!!!!!!

No matter what caused the earthquake russell nothing can happen with out God allowing it. He is in control. We try to explain how things happen or "how God handles his creation" with geology as if it excludes God out of it when in fact it could just be the means of how it is done...

[free]

So Pat puts his foot in his mouth again...Nothing new there, he's been doing it for years. But I dare say this his organization will send as much aide as anyone...He has helped millions of people around the world.

Also there was an excellent show on PBS about the history of Haiti and how wealthy it was at one time during the 17-1800's as a French colony.

[Russell Roberts]

I never ruled out the possibility that God uses or has used natural disasters to judge people.

What irritates me about people like Pat Robertson is that nearly every time a major tragedy occurs, he attributes it to God's judgment.

Given his very prominent position, he leaves those who don't know better with the impression that we serve a God whose primary concern is to whack people for sinning. Does God get angry about stuff? Yes, he does. But in my estimation it mischaracterizes a God whose main characteristic is love.

I wonder how many people there are out there who hear who will never consider the claims of Jesus Christ thinking that Pat Robertson has presented a typical Christian view of God?

That bothers me immensely.