Haitian curse

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Tracy
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Postby Tracy » January 15th, 2010, 3:06 am

one love wrote:No matter what caused the earthquake russell nothing can happen with out God allowing it. He is in control. We try to explain how things happen or "how God handles his creation" with geology as if it excludes God out of it when in fact it could just be the means of how it is done...


Exactly. God controls the universe. There is no doubt that the earthquake was ordained and orchestrated by Him. That much is certain. Why He did it is another issue entirely; but surely He is doing a million things in this earthquake--some for repentance, some for judgment, some for refining, some for severe mercy, on and on and on. But everything He does is right, good, and just--that much we can be sure of.

And yet the suffering is real and we must help and pray, all the while reading off of this vivid picture the eternal realities of the horror of sin (displayed in the groaning of the creation), the holiness of God (so holy that the creation goans as it does as a result of sinning against God), the fragility of life and the urgency of living before the face of God as though every breath were our last. The earthquake can be mercy for those who let it shake them to treasure Christ more fully, be more conformed to Him, and fix their eyes on Jesus as they long for their real home. Much good would come from that, and that may be yet another one of the thousands of things God is doing in this earthquake.

Right now we can pray and give a cup of cold water to those people living through more horror than we can even imagine.

My thoughts,
Tracy
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Postby Full Quiver » January 15th, 2010, 3:11 am

What about "The Flood" of Genesis? What about the "fire" over Sodom and Gomorrah? What about the "earthquake" when Paul and Silas were in prison?


Those were not acts of nature but rather acts of God.
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Postby Tracy » January 15th, 2010, 3:20 am

Full Quiver wrote:
What about "The Flood" of Genesis? What about the "fire" over Sodom and Gomorrah? What about the "earthquake" when Paul and Silas were in prison?


Those were not acts of nature but rather acts of God.


:applaud: Yes. God working through nature (obviously)--but God working intentionally and decisively to be sure. God the ultimate cause; shifting plates, storm clouds, etc the second causes. Yes, yes, yes.

I love your simple yet profound comment.
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Postby MacUser » January 15th, 2010, 3:33 am

Russell Roberts wrote:he leaves those who don't know better with the impression that we serve a God whose primary concern is to whack people for sinning. Does God get angry about stuff? Yes, he does. But in my estimation it mischaracterizes a God whose main characteristic is love.

That bothers me immensely.


Now this is the smartest thing I have ever heard you say and I agree 1000% on your direct love point. We are ALL a result of His amazing love. We are not accidents that found Him.. but creatures of purpose whom He did ALL for.

We can't increase or decrease God one single iota. He is totally self contained and perfect. Yet he has done EVERYTHING for us. Let's understand clearly how things work here first.
Chris -

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John 1:29

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Postby Russell Roberts » January 15th, 2010, 4:16 am

Thanks Macuser

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Postby dolfan » January 15th, 2010, 4:51 am

God causes all. Let's take it, here, as a given that some Haitians made a "deal with the devil", so to speak. Not sure how it came about or what it was or who all was involved, how much of it is the stuff of legend or myth now, etc., but let's just take Pat Robertson's1 description of it as a deliberate pact as true for the sake of argument.

Without God, no plate would've shifted, no earthquake. For that matter, no earth. I get it. I don't discount that. That's not the issue, though. The issue is whether there is a connection in fact between this pact (again assuming, arguendo, (a little Latin for my brother Rambopreacher, there :lol: ) that Robertson is historically accurate about the "deal") and the earthquake. And, the truth is, no one can produce anything that makes that connection without laying back, oversimplistically, on God as the ultimate cause of all things. For my own self, and honestly as I know how to say it, that's pure c-r-a-p-o-l-a and I really believe that it vilifies God Almighty. So, even if there was a pact of this kind made, to tie that to the earthquake is, to say it charitably, irresponsible.

Now, here's something someone said that is getting lambasted and I'll jump in and take some of that soup, too. It's a long point, an honest one that seems cold-hearted, so please bear with. Rush Limbaugh said that Obama is trying to get some political mileage on this, and that the American people have already given to Haiti and that communism is largely responsible for the extent of the tragedy. True, true and true. And, I'll be honest with you that there is about 90% of me that says, "Let them have it. They asked for this and they got what they asked for." They choose to keep communists in power, they glom on to Aristide, and they do not choose a way for their nation that would increase its wealth and build an infrastructure, including minimal building codes, that may have spared some lives. And, once again, here comes a poor neighbor asking us for hands of mercy when all other times it bites the same hand as being an interloping, meddling imperial power grab. Fact is, Haiti could be one of the wealthiest tiny nations on the planet, given its location. Were it not for the Christians there (and I know many or most of them support communism and are/were supporters of Duvalier and Aristide, too, more than likely), I probably would not even pause to look at the destruction let alone consider sending any donations for relief.

BUT, there ARE Christians there. I don't get the luxury of praying for their safety and help, of giving to them only. And, I suppose that's the difference between God and me, that I'd cherry pick who to help when He has, once again, revealed that everything that men hold in esteem is wholly meaningless, and that the meaningless of having plenty (i.e., great infrastructure and wealth didn't stop Katrina) and that the meaninglessness of incomparable poverty (Haiti) yield the same lesson. So, yes, God is in the earthquake. By it, I see, learn and know that there is no hope in this fallen world or any of its devices, including governments, financial systems and philosophies, etc., and that all are so easily dismantled in only seconds. By it, I see, learn and know that when real judgment is rendered by God, in fact and for cause, that it will make this kind of ultimate destruction pale in comparison. So, it is not a question of them and me, or comparing Haiti's communists with Christians, etc. We all occupy the same space that will be judged. 2 The only difference, the only difference, is where I stand before God and where someone else may. And, if I look to my left or right and see my neighbor standing as an enemy of God, it is my duty --- without regard to my political and social beliefs, which must die in all respects --- to offer Him whom I know and Him who has accepted me.



1 Pat Robertson is a lunatic opportunist who helped finance Liberia's Charles Taylor, a Godless murderer if ever there was one. He'll answer for the blood on his hands as much as any Haitian will for any pacts made with powers, earthly or otherwise. If this earthquake is judgment on them, I shudder for what awaits Robertson.

2 I know Russell Roberts, who I respect and love here, may differ with me on this idea of "judgment" versus "redemption" of creation. I submit here only that the redemption of creation will occur because of God's judgment upon it.
Human government bears the same relation to hell as the church bears to heaven. (David Lipscomb, On Civil Government, 72).

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Postby Russell Roberts » January 15th, 2010, 5:04 am

Dolfan, your point about redemption and judgment going together is a good one. In principle, creation was redeemed through the judgment that occurred when Jesus took the judgment he had just pronounced against Jerusalem onto himself on the cross - through which the redemption of creation, in principle, occurred.

It is worth noting that Pat Robertson's record of 'hearing God' is pretty pathetic. A few years back he hedged his bets by qualifying his predictions of hurricanes and tsuanami's lashing the coasts of America with 'If I'm hearing from God right..." a pretty safe statement in light of the devastation he was predicting.

Not a single hurricane touched the costs of America that year. His record of 'hearing God' pretty much speaks for itself.

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Postby forestwalker » January 15th, 2010, 8:50 am

pastorables wrote:from my limited study, it does appear the event (the devil's pact) he was trying to allude to actually occurred and can be documented by historical authorities and college professors, etc.

The history is actually far from clear. The story originated from a French doctor who helped in the torture of captured rebel slaves. The story he reported was pieced together from what was learned in these sessions. A couple of problems are evident, of course. One, information gathered through torture is questionable at best. Two, the French had great interest in demonizing and delegitimizing the rebellion. It's ironic that the Haitians embraced the story themselves after they gained their freedom as part of their founding mythos, but the truth of it is still very questionable.
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Postby Brian » January 15th, 2010, 9:21 am

Tracy wrote:Right now we can pray and give a cup of cold water to those people living through more horror than we can even imagine.

My thoughts,
Tracy


Amen Tracy!

It is certainly a time for prayer and reaching out in whatever capacity we can.

May God sustain all those trapped in the rubble, bring peace to them if it's there final hour, pull on there heart to cry out to the One who is truly able to free them.
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The Petionville Story

Postby Pastor Gary » January 15th, 2010, 11:49 am

Hey, Pat Robertson, if you are correct, seems that Petionville would have been spared • http://bit.ly/8YtEy2 - The Petionville Story Haiti
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you surround them with your favor as with a shield." (Psalm 5:12)

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Postby Russell Roberts » January 15th, 2010, 1:37 pm

If that doesn't bring someone to tears they have lost something of what it means to be truly human.

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Postby TW » January 15th, 2010, 1:38 pm

It might be helpful to understand the predominant religion of Haiti, Voudun.

http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/43a/010.html

I do believe that the author of this article has somewhat misjudged the relationship of the Rada vs Petro forms. From my own observations of the Haitians that I have known personally in my life the Petro form is much more dominant than his estimation.


TW
Anglo-Saxon Proto-English Manuscripts (995 AD): “God lufode middan-eard swa, dat he seade his an-cennedan sunu, dat nan ne forweorde de on hine gely ac habbe dat ece lif."

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Postby pastorables » January 16th, 2010, 12:07 pm

Full Quiver wrote:
What about "The Flood" of Genesis? What about the "fire" over Sodom and Gomorrah? What about the "earthquake" when Paul and Silas were in prison?


Those were not acts of nature but rather acts of God.


Huh? Yes, my point was that God works through natural elements to accomplish the divine. Do you realize that God would never have parted the waters of the Red Sea had there been a bridge? He would have destroyed the bridge after the children of Israel crossed. :)

Am I missing something? Are you strengthening my post or disagreeing? If you read anything other than that the aforementioned fact into my post, you missed what I was attempting to say.

God bless,
pa
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Postby Jennifer Smith » January 17th, 2010, 5:14 pm

Pat Robertson's timing and use of words was not what I would have chosen. I don't think any of us can honestly say who is responsible for the disaster, but the enemy's goal is for our destruction.. God is gracious and compassionate, slow to anger and rich in love. God will work in this situation as we show love and kindness to the people of Haiti.
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Postby Full Quiver » January 18th, 2010, 3:33 am

Of all that bad we've heard about Haiti I sure have seen loads of good on camera this week. When the UN has failed to be of much help, when those who will help couldn't get into the country, the Haitian people have been kind, selfless, and compassionate towards their neighbors. I have not seen any video of the "evil" that we have been made to believe that exists there. My guess is that Haiti is just as fallen as the rest of this world including the USA but I see where folks gathered on a hillside singing a worship chorus which ultimately gave a woman beneath the ruble near by the hope to hold out. I see Haitians passing out water, helping deliver babies, digging out their neighbors during after shocks that could result in their own death, and I see them helping the US military get food and aid passed out.

Sure I have heard reports of gangs and looters but how is that situation any different than many places in the USA? If this island is exponentially evil then so is the USA.

I'll stop now for fear of sounding like Obama and his administration. I do believe the USA is great but believe that Haiti is not near as bad as others would have us believe.
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