Haitian curse

[Tracy]

. I don't think any of us can honestly say who is responsible for the disaster,

Sure we can, Jennifer--God is the ultimate and first cause of the earthquake. He ordained it and purposed it. Certainly He uses second causes--ie. perhaps Satan (we have no way of knowing), but ultimately, God is the first cause; and apart from His will and purpose, the earthquate would not have happened.

Blessings,
Tracy

[Jennifer Smith]

Tracy,
You embrace a different theology than I, because I do not believe that everything that happens is God's will.. I do believe He works good in and through situations, by His grace.. especially to those who love God and those who allow Him to work in their lives.. our free will is one factor that God has chosen not to control. The enemy of our souls who fights against the people of earth, and attempts to steal, kill and destroy are also at work, and the sin that is so prevalent in our fallen, altered world.
Spiritual battles are continually taking place for each person's soul.. and even though it is not His will that any should perish, we know that some emphatically choose their own destruction, and that is a sad fact. It is the reason we as Christians must be in prayer and busy doing God's will and promoting His kingdom. I think we've discussed it before.. But it takes a different kind of theology to conclude that God is controlling and orchestrating every thing that happens.. I just don't see that as biblically founded when the Word says that is not God's will for any to perish.

[Full Quiver]

Amen Jennifer and great scriptural reference to back up said belief. If God always had His way, His will, then no one would be lost period.

[Tracy]

Tracy,
You embrace a different theology than I, because I do not believe that everything that happens is God's will.. I do believe He works good in and through situations, by His grace.. especially to those who love God and those who allow Him to work in their lives.. our free will is one factor that God has chosen not to control. The enemy of our souls who fights against the people of earth, and attempts to steal, kill and destroy are also at work, and the sin that is so prevalent in our fallen, altered world.
Spiritual battles are continually taking place for each person's soul.. and even though it is not His will that any should perish, we know that some emphatically choose their own destruction, and that is a sad fact. It is the reason we as Christians must be in prayer and busy doing God's will and promoting His kingdom. I think we've discussed it before.. But it takes a different kind of theology to conclude that God is controlling and orchestrating every thing that happens.. I just don't see that as biblically founded when the Word says that is not God's will for any to perish.

Tectonic plates don't have free will.

[Russell Roberts]

Tracy, are you a five point Calvinist?

[Tracy]

Tracy, are you a five point Calvinist?

Yes

[oletimer]

Tracy Posted:
Tectonic plates don't have free will.

True but they have time limits and presure limits. Yes God has power over all of His creations, but He also alouds things to happen and not because of anyone sin.

Mt 5:45
That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

Yes He has used the elements for His witness. When He rolled back the water at the Red Sea, open the earth and swallow up the the rebelliouse Israelites in the wilderness, when fire came down and consumed the offerings of Elijah and the prophets of Baal and many more. But I think that Elijiah says it best when he prayed;
1Ki 18:37
Hear me, O LORD, hear me, that this people may know that thou art the LORD God, and that thou hast turned their heart back again.

And then God let the people that He was still on the throne
1Ki 18:38
Then the fire of the LORD fell, and consumed the burnt sacrifice, and the wood, and the stones, and the dust, and licked up the water that was in the trench.

Earthquates, storms, lighting, and others have been happening almost since the beginning of time.

God can say yes or no, but for the better part I feel that just lets it happen unless He makes it known He did it for a reason and if He does then He will do it in such a way as to leave no doubt about it.

[Tracy]

Tectonic plates don't move unless God ordains that they move. Job said (and then God said that what Job said was right) that no purpose of God's can be thwarted. Job 41:2. If God had purposed for them not to move, then they wouldn't move. If He had purposed for them not to move in the exact way they moved, then they wouldn't have moved in the exact way they moved.

We need to be very careful that we don't adopt a deistic theology. God didn't wind the world up and then step back and let it run. He is active in His creation. Not one molecule is out of His control. Not one tectonic plate moves outside of His will and purpose.

The reason plates have been moving for thousands of years is because God has been ordaining their movement for thousands of years. Let's not slip back into the errors of the enlightenment and become practical deists. Once they figured out a few scientific laws, they removed God from the workings of the universe and became deists. It is a grievous sin to forget God and push Him aside. We are theists. We acknowledge that He created and upholds and runs the universe.

Absolutely nothing happens outside of God's will, but it is important to understand how the Bible presents the intricacies of God's will. Yes, there is even a sense in which God wills that some perish: at the very least He wills it by His will of permission, else He would never have created those who will perish. He knew from eternity who will perish and who will come to Him, and He created those who will perish anyway. If He weren't willing to let them perish, He would not have created them. He wills their perishing by His will of permission. I point this out because it is important to understand that God is not trumped by human free will. He rules even that.

The Bible is replete with examples of the intricacies of the different senses in which God wills things.

The simple fact is that if anything or anyone can thwart the ultimate, decretive will of God then God is not God, something or someone else is--namely whatever or whomever thwarted His will. There is no other way around it.

But it can't happen. He rules. Period. And that is cause for rejoicing.


Blessings,
Tracy

[Full Quiver]

Tectonic plates don't have free will.

Maybe not but we do and yet people still say God controls our every wink and nod.


They say that drilling do to thermal energy installs can cause and I suppose has caused earthquakes and as I hear California has abandoned, for the most part, such technology.

If this is so then did God cause said earthquake/earthquakes or did man by his constant drilling deep into the Earth?

[Tracy]

Tectonic plates don't have free will.

Maybe not but we do and yet people still say God controls our every wink and nod.

Human free will doesn't trump God's ultimate will. No purpose of His can be thwarted--He wills, at least by permission, every single thing that happens. That's the point.

But you are right--tectonic plates don't have free will. They have no will. God moves plates.

[MacUser]

God's ultimate will. No purpose of His can be thwarted--He wills, at least by permission, every single thing that happens. That's the point.

Tracy I love to see you think. You can logically compartmentalize without emoting. Perhaps it was done so out of necessity.. or just gifting. Interesting.

Question: Does your image of God differ from Jesus? Maybe that's not stated right.. but you get my point. When Philip asked Jesus to show us the Father...

Philip said to Jesus, "Lord, show us the Father. That is all we need."
Jesus answered, "Philip, I have been with you for a long time. So you should know me. The person that has seen me has seen the Father too. So why do you say, 'Show us the Father'? Do you truly believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The things I have told you don't come from me. The Father lives in me, and he is doing his own work. Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me. Or believe because of the miracles I have done.


So does this image of God reflect Jesus? Curious how you process that. Again, no right or wrong answers here... just curious.

[Brian]

Philip said to Jesus, "Lord, show us the Father. That is all we need."
Jesus answered, "Philip, I have been with you for a long time. So you should know me. The person that has seen me has seen the Father too. So why do you say, 'Show us the Father'? Do you truly believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The things I have told you don't come from me. The Father lives in me, and he is doing his own work. Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me. Or believe because of the miracles I have done.

Doesn't that support Tracy's position that it is God's will being carried out in the Person of Jesus?

[Tracy]

They say that drilling do to thermal energy installs can cause and I suppose has caused earthquakes and as I hear California has abandoned, for the most part, such technology.

If this is so then did God cause said earthquake/earthquakes or did man by his constant drilling deep into the Earth?

Yes. God is the first cause, man is the second cause. God moved the plates, as it were, by means of man's actions. The movement is ordained by Him, purposed by Him, and intended by Him.

[Tracy]

God's ultimate will. No purpose of His can be thwarted--He wills, at least by permission, every single thing that happens. That's the point.

Tracy I love to see you think. You can logically compartmentalize without emoting. Perhaps it was done so out of necessity.. or just gifting. Interesting.

Question: Does your image of God differ from Jesus? Maybe that's not stated right.. but you get my point. When Philip asked Jesus to show us the Father...

Philip said to Jesus, "Lord, show us the Father. That is all we need."
Jesus answered, "Philip, I have been with you for a long time. So you should know me. The person that has seen me has seen the Father too. So why do you say, 'Show us the Father'? Do you truly believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The things I have told you don't come from me. The Father lives in me, and he is doing his own work. Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me. Or believe because of the miracles I have done.


So does this image of God reflect Jesus? Curious how you process that. Again, no right or wrong answers here... just curious.

That is a deep question! lol. I hold a very traditional and orthodox view of the Godhead. Three in one. One essence, three persons. One God, three manifestations with differing roles.

Does that help at all? To be sure, I could have, in the above posts, just as easily said that Jesus' will is ultimate and Jesus created and is upholding the creation (Heb 1).

Not sure if I answered your question..

[Tracy]

You can logically compartmentalize without emoting. Perhaps it was done so out of necessity.. or just gifting. Interesting.

Yes, I know I don't emote, and usually it gets me into trouble. Generally I am accused of being arrogant and the like, I guess because I sound blunt.

The truth is, I try very, very, very, very hard not to insult, put down, or use sarcasm when debating. I never want to be rude or mean or hateful. If I think I have, I just about make myself sick worrying about it. You wouldn't believe how many times I reread my posts sometimes, analyzing them to make sure I haven't said anything that would seem insulting. If I detect something, I edit.

So, I try to just stick with the facts and issues, keeping emotion out of it so that I don't offend or hurt someone.

I do try to toss in the occasional emoticon to help lighten the mood.