lies

[Russell Roberts]

Poimen,

I'm sorry for impugning your character. I could have made my point without doing that. Please forgive me.

[free]

Yes...(That's a lie)!

[MacUser]

I think the deeper question is that after Abraham believed and then clearly lied (whopper - Big Mac Style)... why then did God abundantly STILL bless?

Sorry iPhone post

[pastorables]

I think the deeper question is that after Abraham believed and then clearly lied (whopper - Big Mac Style)... why then did God abundantly STILL bless?

Sorry iPhone post

What lie did Abraham utter? I think I know what you may be referring to, but I'm not sure that it was actually a lie.

pa

[MacUser]

He put his wife in serious harms way via a Mondo lie and as result of this lie was gloriously blessed

[pastorables]

He put his wife in serious harms way via a Mondo lie and as result of this lie was gloriously blessed

Again, what was the lie? Are you referring to the "sister" statement? She was actually his half-sister.

pa

[MacUser]

He put his wife in serious harms way via a Mondo lie and as result of this lie was gloriously blessed

Again, what was the lie? Are you referring to the "sister" statement? She was actually his half-sister.

pa

he also knew she was his WIFE and knew kings intent yet willfully let it happen. He lied to save his skin and it was GOD alone that stopped it and gloriously blessed him in spite of his slimey actions

[pastorables]

He put his wife in serious harms way via a Mondo lie and as result of this lie was gloriously blessed

Again, what was the lie? Are you referring to the "sister" statement? She was actually his half-sister.

pa

he also knew she was his WIFE and knew kings intent yet willfully let it happen. He lied to save his skin and it was GOD alone that stopped it and gloriously blessed him in spite of his slimey actions

I think this takes us to the crux of this entire thread. What is considered a lie to one might not be to another. I don't see withholding information (in most cases) as a lie. Abraham shared that this was his sister (half-sister) which wasn't a lie. I do not consider his withholding of other information as a lie.

As a minister, I may get asked "how was the pie?"... It could be the most awful pie I've ever tasted. I can say, "it was very tempting"... There, I have not lied, but I have not revealed the whole truth either.

pa

[Poimen]

He put his wife in serious harms way via a Mondo lie and as result of this lie was gloriously blessed

But he was blessed in spite of the lie, not because of it. Again, God was working all things after the counsel of own will, for His own purpose, after which Abraham was called. God worked all things for His good. And He did so in spite of his wrongs, not because of them.

[RuSKY]

Revelation 21:8
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

[Poimen]

Poimen,

I'm sorry for impugning your character. I could have made my point without doing that. Please forgive me.

Done. Thank you.

To save from a long redress of your comments, allow me to synthesize my response as follows....

Loving one's neighbor unselfishly (that is "as much as one's self) is certainly the intention and motivation behind much of the teaching of Scripture, second only to loving God unreservedly (or with all that we are), which encompasses all other teaching.

Having said that, loving one's neighbor must not come before loving God. Else, we invert the order and natural flow of the great, and only commandments. Lying, even to protect another, may indeed be an act of love toward them, but at the expense of total love for God.

This then becomes not only a violation of our relationship to God, of the first and great commandment, but an idolatrous reckoning of our neighbor and the second great commandment.

[Russell Roberts]

Poimen,

I would argue that the most practical way that we love God is by loving our neighbor. Note that when Paul was on his way to Damascus to persecute Christians, Jesus asked why he was persecuting HIM.

If things get really bad in America to the point that Christians are being pursued and murdered, I'm not coming to your house to hide!

As I have pointed out, no guilt is incurred for technical violations when a greater good is involved. I stand by that statement.

[Full Quiver]

I think you have a very good heart. And as I stated, I am fond of you and I do love you. But I think that we can become overly obsessed with sin to the detriment of focusing on other aspects of life that are more important like our pursuit to love God and love our neighbor.

If you love God the way He wants you to love Him you won't lie, break His commandment.

If you love your neighbor as yourself you won't lie because doing so would be a sin against or a trespass against your neighbor.


Abraham's wife was his sister. Yes he mislead and thus in essence lied but he was also telling the truth to his benefit. He didn't tell the entire story obviously. However, God is well able to work His will by intervening in the midst of our unfaithful, sinful ways.

It's almost like some are implying that God needed Abe to lie for His will to be accomplished.

The topic however is actually is it ever ok, the right thing to do, to lie.

Great points Poimen!

Great post Daniel; God hates a lying tongue. Most people would see this as a lack of love but irregardless God hates at least your tongue when you lie.

[Russell Roberts]

FQ,

I gave an example from scripture of Jesus explaining that sometimes, in pursuit of a higher principle, technical violations of a command are appropriate. I'm not sure how you see that as being inconsistent with this very question. Would you explain how they are different?

[Full Quiver]

Russell, Jesus is the Sabbath. The Jewish Law said not to work on the Sabbath which was interpreted as don't pick corn in that instance.

God's law says don't lie or bear false witness. The Jewish law does not. God's law trumps Torah. Jesus never broke any of the 10 commandments for a greater good.

OK, playing the devil's advocate here: when is it ok to sleep with your neighbor's wife for the greater good?