Water and Spirit

[beckrl]

What would you say is the meaning concerning "water"

Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

[scooter]

I'd say natural birth, thus the born again angle.

[Full Quiver]

Natural birth.

The human body, the flesh, is made up of how much water. Also it is the bursting of the amniotic sac (water broke) that flushes a child into this world.

[Tracy]

I studied this a few years back and learned that this does not refer to natural birth. D.A. Carson, in his outstanding commentary on John discusses and explains this expression:

There are no ancient sources that picture natural birth as 'from water.'

The parallelism with verse 3 is important. v. 5 "born of water and the Spirit" is parallel with v.3 --"born from above," which indicates that 'water and Spirit' is the same as 'born from above.' Thus 'water and Spirit" is a conceptual unity.

Jesus berates Nicodemus for not understanding thee things as Israel's teacher, so we must look to the Old Testament for help in understanding what it means...

When water is used figuratively in the O.T., it habitually refers to renewal or cleansing, especially when it is found in conjunction with spirit.

Cf Ez 36:25-27 where water and spirit come together so forcefully--the first to signify cleansing from impurity and the second to depict the transformation of heart that will enable people to follow God wholly.

Based on this information, I think it is probably accurate to interpret 'water and Spirit' to essentially signify regeneration--cleansing and transformation--ie. being born again (v.3). One must be born again to even see the kingdom of God (v.3), and one must be born of water and Spirit to enter into the kingdom of God (v.5).

Fascinating stuff!
Tracy

[Daniel]

What would you say is the meaning concerning "water"

Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

3:5. Various views are given to explain Jesus’ words about being born of water and the Spirit: (1) The “water” refers to the natural birth, and the “Spirit” to the birth from above. (2) The “water” refers to the Word of God (Eph. 5:26). (3) The “water” refers to baptism as an essential part of regeneration. (This view contradicts other Bible verses that make it clear that salvation is by faith alone; e.g., John 3:16, 36; Eph. 2:8-9; Titus 3:5.) (4) The “water” is a symbol of the Holy Spirit (John 7:37-39). (5) The “water” refers to the repentance ministry of John the Baptist, and the “Spirit” refers to the application by the Holy Spirit of Christ to an individual.
The fifth view has the merit of historical propriety as well as theological acceptability. John the Baptist had stirred the nation by his ministry and stress on repentance (Matt. 3:1-6). “Water” would remind Nicodemus of the Baptist’s emphasis. So Jesus was saying that Nicodemus, in order to enter the kingdom, needed to turn to Him (repent) in order to be regenerated by the Holy Spirit.

[beckrl]

It seems to me that the "water" aspect would lean toward baptism, and not of our fleshly brith. Why I say baptism, I would not be refering of the water baptism but of repentance that John peached unto "water" baptism.

John preached repentance and said that one was to come an baptize you with the Holy Ghost [Spirit], and fire. Matthew 3:11

So in an since Jesus is telling Nicodemus Except and man be born of "Repentance and of the Spirit", he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

Having the fruits meet for repentance.

[Daniel]

It seems to me that the "water" aspect would lean toward baptism, and not of our fleshly brith. Why I say baptism, I would not be refering of the water baptism but of repentance that John peached unto "water" baptism.

John preached repentance and said that one was to come an baptize you with the Holy Ghost [Spirit], and fire. Matthew 3:11

So in an since Jesus is telling Nicodemus Except and man be born of "Repentance and of the Spirit", he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

Having the fruits meet for repentance.

That is how I understand it, too. To be born of the water and the Spirit would imply water baptism (immersion). The Apostle Paul speaks of being buried with Christ (Romans 6:4), and Peter speaks of baptism being the symbolic action of our response to receiving God's salvation in Christ (1 Peter 3:20-21).

[rough_rider]

water and Spirit' to essentially signify regeneration--cleansing and transformation--ie. being born again

Yes, that's how I was taught and interpet the meaning of water and Spirit.

[MacUser]

I studied this a few years back and learned that this does not refer to natural birth. D.A. Carson, in his outstanding commentary on John discusses and explains this expression:

There are no ancient sources that picture natural birth as 'from water.'

The parallelism with verse 3 is important. v. 5 "born of water and the Spirit" is parallel with v.3 --"born from above," which indicates that 'water and Spirit' is the same as 'born from above.' Thus 'water and Spirit" is a conceptual unity.

Jesus berates Nicodemus for not understanding thee things as Israel's teacher, so we must look to the Old Testament for help in understanding what it means...

When water is used figuratively in the O.T., it habitually refers to renewal or cleansing, especially when it is found in conjunction with spirit.

Cf Ez 36:25-27 where water and spirit come together so forcefully--the first to signify cleansing from impurity and the second to depict the transformation of heart that will enable people to follow God wholly.

Based on this information, I think it is probably accurate to interpret 'water and Spirit' to essentially signify regeneration--cleansing and transformation--ie. being born again (v.3). One must be born again to even see the kingdom of God (v.3), and one must be born of water and Spirit to enter into the kingdom of God (v.5).

Fascinating stuff!
Tracy

Indeed. Thanks for sharing.

[scooter]

Water Baptism
Those who hold to a baptismal regeneration point to this verse as indicating that one is saved by the physical act of baptism. The problem is that the Scriptures are clear elsewhere to say that we are saved by grace through faith and apart from any outward ritualism such as circumcision or baptism.

An alternate view sees the water, not only in a literal sense, but also and primarily as symbolic for the cleansing power that is represented in baptism.

Physical Birth
This view sees Jesus as making a contrast between the physical birth versus the spiritual birth and identifies being "born of water" as a reference to the physical birth. One obvious weakness of this view is that there is no precedence (either Jewish or otherwise) for identifying physical birth with water. Over against this argument is Isaiah 48:1 that speaks of Israel coming from the waters of Judah (the KJV follows the literal Hebrew text).

The Word of God
This view looks to passages such as Ephesians 5:26 (cleansed by the washing of water with the word) and 1 Peter 1:23 (you have been born again... by the word of God) and sees this water as a reference to the Scriptures.

The Holy Spirit
This view translates the word "and" (kai) as "even" to say that one is born of water, even the Spirit. This view has the advantage of an Old Testament connection that would have been understandable to Nicodemus (Ezekiel 36:25-27 speaks of how God would sprinkle clean water and give a new heart and a new spirit to His people).

Lets play my commentary is better than yours!

[beckrl]

Now that I remember it, Jesus said something about "water"

John 4:14
But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

[Tracy]

I don't see how it could refer to water baptism, because Jesus was reprimanding Nicodemus--a pharisee/a teacher in Israel for not understanding what He was talking about. Nicodemus would have no need to understand water baptism, no frame of reference, and no accountability for not understanding.

'Born of water' is something that he would have to have prior knowledge of, else Jesus would not have expected him to understand as a teacher in Israel. This is something Nicodemus should have known and understood on some level--which is why going to the Old Testament for help is so useful.

I think that letting the parallelism with v. 3 hold plus going to the Old Testament is the best way to discern what Jesus is talking about. In both instances, a cleansing is in view, signifying the principal behind new birth/regeneration. This also keeps the conceptual unity that Jesus seems to indicate when he parallels 'born from above' with "water and Spirit." It appears as though we shouldn't separate the two, because Jesus didn't seem to. His use of the two words seems to have one definition--born of "water + Spirit"=born from above.

Anyhoo--just some thoughts

[PastorDaniel]

Titus 3:4-6 (King James Version)

4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,

5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

I would lean more towards what Tracy was saying...I don't believe in baptismal regeneration...I was apart of the UPC for eight years and got delievered from that idea....but I don't see it as a natural birh either...I see the water and spirit as falling in line with other scripture, such as I have quoted above, I believe it's more of a spiritual cleansing...such as sanctification...maybe it could be tied into sanctification...havn't studied it out...just a thought...

[Full Quiver]

natural birth = born of water

The verse that says the washing of water by the word backs that up I believe.

washing OF water BY the WORD

this could be rearranged to read the Word, Jesus, washed the water

the water is what is being washed in the verse
the Word is the cleansing agent

[scooter]

I could go with the water being a conjunction along with the Spirit. However Spirit seems to sum up a Spiritual rebirth.

I don't know why one would have to add water to spiritual rebirth.

I take my position lightly since the scripture references two births, ie born again, it just makes logical sense.

One can not see the kingdom of God if they are only born once.