Denied the Faith

[Pastorbps]

I was reading this scripture in 1 Tim 5:8 and even though I had read it many times, I was struck by the phrase "he hath denied the faith." What are your opinions as to the meaning of this phrase?

[beckrl]

They profess to know God, but by their deeds they deny Him, being detestable and disobedient and worthless for any good deed. (Titus 1:16 NASB)


He has rejected, disowned the faith, whom reject to be faithful, without trust, of those that refuse belief in the gospel, of those among the christians themselves who reject the true faith....by not being obedient.


Some how I think you knew that already

[MacUser]

I was reading this scripture in 1 Tim 5:8 and even though I had read it many times, I was struck by the phrase "he hath denied the faith." What are your opinions as to the meaning of this phrase?

Seems pretty straight forward when in context?

1 Timothy 5:8 (King James Version)
8. But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.


Sounds like a lazy husband issue? Correct me if I'm wrong?

[dolfan]

Goes back to the faith and works issue on another thread. If you are a believer, you'll do what Jesus did. He said, "I work....". John 5:17. Working is faith. If you don't work, you don't have faith, and you've denied the faith to the point of being worse than an unbeliever.

(To those who can't work, don't take that as a slight. Take it as an encouragement that God values everything that you CAN do when you are living unto Him.)

[MacUser]

If you are a believer, you'll do what Jesus did. He said, "I work....". John 5:17. Working is faith. If you don't work, you don't have faith

John 5:17 (King James Version)
17. But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.

Let's expound on what Jesus is saying..

John 5:19-24 (New International Version)
19. Jesus gave them this answer: "I tell you the truth, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does. 20. For the Father loves the Son and shows him all he does. Yes, to your amazement he will show him even greater things than these. 21. For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son gives life to whom he is pleased to give it. 22. Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son, 23. that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him.

24."I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.

Jesus is enumerating a principle for SONs here because if not.. he would have said.. "I".. instead of "a SON" etc. So basically you ( Son ) do what the Father is already doing... if not.. you are wasting your time working nothing. It's about relationship. Paternal and not performance.

Jesus also tells another truth.. in verse 24 that is beautiful. Believe & Receive Eternal Life... freely given.. wonderful.

[beckrl]

Lets expound on that they would be worse that an infidel..... to know to do good and not.... would that apply to the church in the context of the widow?

[MacUser]

Lets expound on that they would be worse that an infidel..... to know to do good and not

1 Timothy 5:8 (King James Version)
8. But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.

In context here what are we missing? Doesn't this answer it?

[beckrl]

This should be in context of the widow, and to that widow that has return to her family, now if that family, which the man would be the leader and support of would not support her then he is worst than an infidel or unbeliever.

I guess what was happening is that the man of the family would rather have the church support her than have that addition to the family.

[Pastorbps]

So then does "denied the faith" mean he once had faith but now has disavowed it or has proven to have disavowed it by his actions? Can one have faith in Christ and then do works which shows a decision by the person to abandon their faith?

[MacUser]

So then does "denied the faith" mean he once had faith but now has disavowed it or has proven to have disavowed it by his actions? Can one have faith in Christ and then do works which shows a decision by the person to abandon their faith?

The only thing he is doing is showing his unbelief. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.. but It appears to say to me that he will be worse than an Infidel which is basically "one without faith". This man simply does not believe and thus is denied the faith thru his own decisions. An infidel may convert and believe at some point.. but this guy is worse because Truth has probably been revealed and still doesn't believe.

You can't earn that GOAT forward or in the reverse... just ask the older brother in the prodigal son. It was already his to take. Salvation is a gift as Jesus says in an above post. Not a wage earned or lost based on work.

24."I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life

.

[oletimer]

Jesus is enumerating a principle for SONs here because if not.. he would have said.. "I".. instead of "a SON" etc. So basically you ( Son ) do what the Father is already doing... if not.. you are wasting your time working nothing. It's about relationship. Paternal and not performance.

I believe that He used the term (Son) and not (sons) as Jesus was speaking of Himself and God the Father. The implication being that what He was doing was of the Father.

I will agree that we do need a relationship with Christ. All the works that we do before we get “relationship” is void as for God. But with all sincerity when we come to Christ we do so in “faith”, but after coming to Christ, we must grow in that “faith”. This is accomplished by works through faith. James wrote concerning faith and works.

Jas 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
A man that has faith and no works is more akin to a hypocrite. This is some of what is asked in 1Tim 5:8

1Ti 5:8 [b]But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.[/b]

I have found out that the better ones relationship is with Christ, that harder most will work for the Lord. You keep talking about sons and relationship, I thought about where the elder son was when the youngest son came back.

Lu 15:25 Now his elder son was in the field: and as he came and drew nigh to the house, he heard musick and dancing.

Wonder what he was doing in the field? Don’t guess he was working do you?

[Pastorbps]

You can't earn that GOAT forward or in the reverse... just ask the older brother in the prodigal son. It was already his to take. Salvation is a gift as Jesus says in an above post. Not a wage earned or lost based on work.

Don't understand the Older brother analogy.

One chooses to believe. Can they choose to no longer believe?
I think Hebrews clearly shows one can do so. Thus, we are to "hold our profession stedfast to the end."

What happens if a person chooses to live sinfully after a profession of faith? I think 1 John 3 clearly teaches that a person who lives in sin is not a child of God. The question then becomes...
Were they ever Saved or were they saved but their choice to return to a life of sin signaled their decision to disavow their faith in Christ?

[MacUser]

You can't earn that GOAT forward or in the reverse... just ask the older brother in the prodigal son.

Don't understand the Older brother analogy.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se ... ersion=NIV

11. Jesus continued: "There was a man who had two sons. 12The younger one said to his father, 'Father, give me my share of the estate.' So he divided his property between them.

23. Bring the fattened calf and kill it. Let's have a feast and celebrate.

And here comes the beautiful part.. Essentially a loving father responding to a working religious spirit / servant based son. His mindset motivation is KEY HERE

28"The older brother became angry and refused to go in. So his father went out and pleaded with him. 29But he answered his father, 'Look! All these years I've been slaving for you and never disobeyed your orders. Yet you never gave me even a young GOAT so I could celebrate with my friends. 30. But when this son of yours who has squandered your property with prostitutes comes home, you kill the fattened calf for him!'

31" 'My son,' the father said, 'you are always with me, and everything I have is yours.

In verse 31 he calls him SON again to set his relationship straight.. and reminds him that this GOAT / CALF he desired etc was already his to make merry with his friends if he so choose. He NEVER EVER had to earn it. It was a FREE GIFT. Praise God!!!

Don't think it was his already? Read verse 11 where the father divided it to him already. It was already HIS for the taking.. yet he continued to think that he had to work for it.

We must understand the New Covenant we are now under. Beautiful. Thank you Jesus.

[MacUser]

I have found out that the better ones relationship is with Christ, that harder most will work for the Lord. You keep talking about sons and relationship, I thought about where the elder son was when the youngest son came back.

Wonder what he was doing in the field? Don’t guess he was working do you?

Yep and he was corrected by his father that his attitude and mindset was wrong. See above post.

Absolutely Yes you work for your father.. but out of relationship as Jesus did and not out of performance or fear of losing his Free Gifts ( or it wouldn't be Free ). Jesus wasn't worried or in a rush and his Father was WELL PLEASED. He listened to what his Father told him specifically to do out of Sonship relationship because he could do nothing without Him. He is our model.

When we are Sons.. God will send the Spirit of HIS SON into our hearts.. so we can be JUST LIKE HIM. Praise God!!

Galatians 4:6 (New International Version)
6. Because you are sons, God sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, the Spirit who calls out, "Abba, Father."

7. So you are no longer a slave, but a son; and since you are a son, God has made you also an heir.


See God will speak to you and tell you what to do and you will do what he asks because you are HIS SON. Not earning a wage or special favor.

1 Corinthians 2
10. but God has revealed it to us by his Spirit. The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. 11For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us.

Fantastic Stuff.. Zowie.
God Bless You!

[beckrl]

What I get out of the passage of 1 Tim. 5:8 is that if a man decides not to fulfill his obligation or duties which concerns the support of the widow of his family. He then is worst that an infidel or nonbeliever.

So the only why an widow would be placed on the church list for support is if she be no less that sixty years old and wife of one man, with an good report. The younger widow was to return to her family for support.

So being disobedience is the same as being an infidel. In the case of the widows at less, For that is one purpose that Jesus came into the world for the poor, fatherless, alien, and a defender of the widow.