Denied the Faith

[beckrl]

Beck
I do believe this parable is about people caring for their own families and especially those who are unable to care for themselves (widows).

I made the reference to 1 Timothy 5:16 to shown the context of what 1 Timothy 5:9 should apply too. It says "If any man or woman that believeth have widows". I think that defines the context, but I can be wrong. I'm not sure one should apply that to someone else, or to those that doesn't support their family, because this verse and passage related to widows and not just an family member. The widow that has rejoined the family because of the loss of her husand. I'm just trying not to apply it to some thing that it wasn't meant to be.

My point is, there are many who believe once a person has accepted Christ and been converted, they can never depart from the faith. I just think this scripture must be difficult, for those with that belief, to explain. How can one "disavow" the faith? He must be speaking to Christians because the whole essence of his instructions was about how the CHURCH should care for its widows. If he is speaking to the church, then he leaves open the possibility for one to believe and then to deny or disavow that faith.

I agree, and other scriptures also point that out, as "a falling away first" 2 Thess. 2:3 those will turn from the faith, Likewise Paul instructs Timothy that "some shall depart from the faith" 1 Timothy 4:1-5, 2 Timothy 3:1-17

This is a message to the church, but more to the indiviual believer to be Christ like. First the responibility is to the man or woman that believeth to support the widow in their famil, for it's not the chruch responsiblity. The only widows that the chruch is responsible for is those of 60+ and of an faith report.

To me the reason why one is worst than an infidel if one disowns his faith is because he first had knowledge and then with that knowledge turns away from it to disown it.

[dolfan]

Let's slice it another way, then: Elder son doesn't work. He just sits back and waits. Meanwhile, the father, being the diligent and productive and creative father he is, grows the estate. Everything still belongs to the elder son when pop passes, or as you say, to the elder son if he up and chooses to cash in. We can --- probably shouldn't, but can --- take that away from the parable, too. That is, of course, if we don't read what Jesus is saying as requiring faithfulness of action, faithfulness of deed.

See, I'm not so sure that this story is telling us that relationship is the reason. It is the reason, but I don't think that's what Jesus is saying here. I see that in spite of the fact that "everything I have is yours", Dad took the fatted calf and killed it for the other brother. Before he got that far, he put a ring, the best robe and shoes on the younger son.....all "belonging to" the older brother, perhaps.

And, he tells the elder brother, and this is my big paraphrase of course ---

"Ummmm, this was the right thing to do. You're my son, and you are faithful; but, this is my son, too who -- although he rejected my gifts by wasting them -- he returned to me and asked for mercy. What I have is yours, but I'm the one who has it. You keep being faithful. I don't expect you to reward faithlessness, so don't be faithless. I'm not rewarding faithlessness, either. At the same time, don't expect me to turn my back on my son. He's got nothing to show for what he had. He's lost a lot; in fact, he's lost everything that you now have, pretty much. By the time he's old and hoary-headed, you'll see how much more he could've had and so will he. You gotta hate it when that happens. Look, he's wearing borrowed clothing and eating food that isn't his. The party'll be over soon and you will still bear the fruits of faithfulness (i.e., work) and he'll bear the fruits of loss. We can both love him and hope he does right from now on."

That is righteousness that exceeds the righteousness of the Pharisees. Faithfulness requires doing, working. But, it isn't a bargain or a this-for-that. None of us are doing God a favor here. This a love thing. God's gift is freely given, but the responsibility of having it is anything but easy. Why else would we need the fruits of the Spirit (patience, temperance, meekness, gentleness, faith, etc.)? To endure what? The passive endurance of the hardships inflicted by others? No! That's a victim's Christian faith! To endure the active burdens of service? Yes!! Bearing the cross? Yeah!!

Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, who....emptied Himself [that is, He actually voluntarily gave up what He "had"], taking the form of a servant [He put on one of these mortal shells], being made in the likeness of men, .... he humbled himself, becoming obedient unto death, yea the death of the cross (Phil. 2:4-10, ASV, abbreviated by me).

This is Jesus who DOES, not just Jesus who IS. We are faithful by what we do, not by who we are. But, we do what we do because of who we are. We make choices and do things because we are made like the One who chose us and makes us conformable to His image. So, it IS relationship, but it is activity in relationship.

[oletimer]

This is Jesus who DOES, not just Jesus who IS. We are faithful by what we do, not by who we are. But, we do what we do because of who we are. We make choices and do things because we are made like the One who chose us and makes us conformable to His image. So, it IS relationship, but it is activity in relationship.

Well put Dolfan, never heard it put better.

[Pastorbps]

Oh I've got what you're saying and the idea of being a son by the grace of God and heir of God, joint heir with Jesus is a beautiful teaching. It just isn't taught here in the elder son getting his own fatted calf.

[MacUser]

It just isn't taught here in the elder son getting his own fatted calf.

You mean Goat?

At risk of being repetitive.. the verses speak for themselves. The elders offense in this parable is simple to understand and unmistakeable.... and the father's loving response is beautiful. The striving elder son sadly attempts to work for his reward when via inheritance he already has it.

This is an incredibly powerful parable!

[MacUser]

Let's slice it another way, then:

It's a simple powerful parable that doesn't require so many.. "I think" and "maybes". It simply states it clearly what it means and is extremely easy to read. Jesus was making a point and it came thru extremely clear and it's fantastic and not hard to understand.

We are faithful by what we do, not by who we are.

Very Quickly..

Not By Works: Ephesians 2:8-9
8. For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9. not by works, so that no one can boast.

Personally Qualified: Colossians 1:12
12: giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified you to share in the inheritance of the saints in the kingdom of light.

The Son can do nothing by himself : John 5:19.
19. Jesus gave them this answer: "I tell you the truth, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does.

Faith Pleases God: Hebrews 11:6
And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.


Will we work? Absolutely... but out of paternity and not performance as Jesus did. It by His Grace only period.

God Bless!

[dolfan]

Mac, I don't think we disagree at all.

But, some folks (not saying you are, just that it is a frequently made issue with believers) set up what I think is a false "versus" on faith and works. I agree that it is a simple parable being overdissected. Grace delivers us faith and we do not gin it up within ourselves because we cannot even approach God on our own without the presence and leading of the One whom He sent. He is the one who stamps us as accepted in the beloved. Yes, sir! And (not a but ... an "and"), those who are accepted, those who are qualified, those who are chosen and delivered do. Jesus said, as you point out, "whatever the Father does the Son also does". By our doing, we demonstrate that we have faith. James 2:18. By doing, then, we can please God, because doing IS the demonstration of faith, and without faith we cannot please God. And, it isn't the work only that pleases Him -- it is the motivation (love) behind the work and the fact that He's the One who produces that motivation in us ("the fruit of the Spirit is love, [etc.]"). And as a creative Father -- a creating Father ["it is He who made us and not we ourselves"]-- He loves our work that is offered to Him. That is to be the whole of our life, says Paul (Romans 12:1).

So, yes -- beautiful. And, I like getting a chance to bat this around some with you.

[Pastorbps]

Mac:
All the verses you gave teach Salvation by Grace through faith. I'm not disagreeing with that at all. I still think the discussion between the father and elder son over the fatted calf has nothing to do with "stop working, Salvation is yours." I sure don't think that is the clear and unmistakable point of their discussion. Just my belief.

On the discussion of faith and works, I believe they are inseparable. While we are Saved by grace through faith, the converted heart is witnessed by a hatred of sin and a love for the right. If these are not present then the person either was never truly "Born Again" or they have abandoned the way in favor of the life of rebellion. I have no problem with the person who believes in eternal security who denies a person was ever born again if they live sinfully. At least they understand, as I do, that one cannot live sinfully and be a child of God. I do have a problem with those who believe behavior and conversion are separate issues and thus they teach, "It is irrelevant whether a person lives sinfully or not."
I believe that is a dangerous teaching.
In that, again I agree with Dolfan that we are not really disagreeing in what we are saying. I believe our standing is based upon grace through faith and as you have pointed out, our behavior is based upon our relationship with God. However, I would add, if my behavior is sinful, it is because I have no relationship.

[MacUser]

Mac:
All the verses you gave teach Salvation by Grace through faith. I'm not disagreeing with that at all. I still think the discussion between the father and elder son over the fatted calf has nothing to do with "stop working, Salvation is yours." I sure don't think that is the clear and unmistakable point of their discussion. Just my belief.

Those verses were for Dolfan and his comment.

My verse for the parable again is the simple parable. The parable scriptures never said to "stop working - Salvation is yours". It simply says that "SON" you can't work for your inheritance when it has already been given to you. The elder sons offense was that the younger was disobedient yet the father feasted him the BEST they had to offer.. while he was obedient, working hard for such an honor and never even got a young skinny goat to make merry with HIS friends.

It was his all along to make merry... but he labored under a misconception that he had to work for it.

We all have to see whom we identify with here. Who do we more align with? The wayward wasteful SON that sees the light and returns.. or the servant that thinks he can earn it.

For speed my comment specifically is with above to keep simple and on my original point.

[Pastorbps]

While the point you make is really good, I don't think that was the intention of the parable. In context of Luke 15 I don't think He was speaking about righteousness by faith versus righteousness based on works.


Rom 10:3
3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

If the parable followed Romans 10:3 then you could very well be right but it doesn't. Instead it follows Luke 15:1-3
Luke 15:1-3
15:1 Then drew near unto him all the publicans and sinners for to hear him.
2 And the Pharisees and scribes murmured, saying, This man receiveth sinners, and eateth with them.
3 And he spake this parable unto them, saying,

The question was regarding why Jesus spent His time with sinners and not with those who were focused on the things of God. In response Jesus tells 3 parables regarding coming to "seek and to save that which is lost." His focus is on the lost. The elder son was only added to show the error in being jealous or angry about the "Father's" attention toward the wayward and rebellious. It fits perfectly with the setting. Your point is really a nice point and, in fact, your point is true but I simply don't believe that was the lesson intended by this parable that's all.

[MacUser]

The elder son was only added to show the error in being jealous or angry about the "Father's" attention toward the wayward and rebellious. It fits perfectly with the setting. Your point is really a nice point and, in fact, your point is true but I simply don't believe that was the lesson intended by this parable that's all.

Don't miss out on the easy to understand.. simple truths... clearly spoken, written in this parable. Beautiful!

God Bless!

[beckrl]

Mac, I guess I fell to see the connection between the elder son and the man who don't support the family widow.

One shows that the elder son that his works aren't accounted among the inheritance, and the man's faith is not accounted because of the lack of support for the widow. So by the lack of works his faith is of none effect.

[MacUser]

Mac, I guess I fell to see the connection between the elder son and the man who don't support the family widow.
.

That's because they are two different points my friend. The over complication of the simple Prodigal Son parable started in response to the first pages "Goat Earning" comment. And yes it still wonderfully stands.. you still can't earn via work what is already yours by inheritance via paternity.


**************

So then does "denied the faith" mean he once had faith but now has disavowed it or has proven to have disavowed it by his actions? Can one have faith in Christ and then do works which shows a decision by the person to abandon their faith?

The only thing he is doing is showing his unbelief. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.. but It appears to say to me that he will be worse than an Infidel which is basically "one without faith". This man simply does not believe and thus is denied the faith thru his own decisions. An infidel may convert and believe at some point.. but this guy is worse because Truth has probably been revealed and still doesn't believe.

You can't earn that GOAT forward or in the reverse... just ask the older brother in the prodigal son. It was already his to take. Salvation is a gift as Jesus says in an above post. Not a wage earned or lost based on work.

24."I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life

.

[Pastorbps]

Salvation is a gift as Jesus says in an above post. Not a wage earned or lost based on work.

I'm not talking about "losing" it based upon "works." I'm talking about giving it up and disavowing the faith. Is it possible to give back the "gift?" Is it possible to turn from a once legitimate faith to faithlessness? Is it possible a person's lifestyle of sin signals a departure from the faith even though they may still profess a faith in Christ? Is it possible sin is not the means of the departure but maybe the lure to draw someone to depart from the faith.

[MacUser]

I'm not talking about "losing" it based upon "works." I'm talking about giving it up and disavowing the faith. Is it possible to give back the "gift?" Is it possible to turn from a once legitimate faith to faithlessness? Is it possible a person's lifestyle of sin signals a departure from the faith even though they may still profess a faith in Christ? Is it possible sin is not the means of the departure but maybe the lure to draw someone to depart from the faith.

Absolutely understood brother and this was my reply to that hypothetical.

The only thing he is doing is showing his unbelief. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.. but It appears to say to me that he will be worse than an Infidel which is basically "one without faith". This man simply does not believe and thus is denied the faith thru his own decisions. An infidel may convert and believe at some point.. but this guy is worse because Truth has probably been revealed and still doesn't believe.

You can't earn that GOAT forward or in the reverse... just ask the older brother in the prodigal son. It was already his to take. Salvation is a gift as Jesus says in an above post. Not a wage earned or lost based on work.

Quote:
24."I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.

God Bless!!