What defines pentecostalism?

[MacUser]

i agree with this but i would like for those on this post to answer the questions that i asked on the last forum before it was jacked.

The last forum? You mean thread? If so.. it's still open. Go check it out.
http://www.jude2.com/viewtopic.php?t=27100&start=30

it would be nice to know what each person on this post really thinks without to many words. yes or no would be nice sometimes.

My response was to Pastor Gary's original post and reviewing first few replies. If you have a different point or want to create a quick poll I highly suggest you start a new thread. Super easy.

God Bless!

[Pastor Gary]

The Bible is very clear in the book of Acts and Corinthians about the outward move of the spirit and the inward.

Let me challenge you to actually read the entire Book of Acts (not just the 2nd Chapter) with a highlighter in hand. Every time you see a phrase that suggests or states directly something that "the Spirit __________" (fill in the blank) highlight it. You will find 3 (or four depending on translation) instances of outward manifestation like tongues, and many MANY instances of other works of the Holy Spirit. We spent a day on this as a group in seminary, taught by a pentecostal professor. Great exercise.

do we believe that the outward signs and wonders of the new testament still happen today?

YES!

do we believe that they have a place in public worship.

That's the harder question. Paul seemed very concerned about the unintended consequences of the uncontrolled use of tongues, in particular, in public worship, urging restraint. He starts by reminding them, "Hey, don't tell me I am anti-gifts... I speak in tongues more than anybody, BUT..." and then goes forward to teach them that the way they were permitting chaos in their services was driving people away.

[dawgs10]

The Bible is very clear in the book of Acts and Corinthians about the outward move of the spirit and the inward.

Let me challenge you to actually read the entire Book of Acts (not just the 2nd Chapter) with a highlighter in hand. Every time you see a phrase that suggests or states directly something that "the Spirit __________" (fill in the blank) highlight it. You will find 3 (or four depending on translation) instances of outward manifestation like tongues, and many MANY instances of other works of the Holy Spirit. We spent a day on this as a group in seminary, taught by a pentecostal professor. Great exercise.

do we believe that the outward signs and wonders of the new testament still happen today?

YES!

do we believe that they have a place in public worship.

That's the harder question. Paul seemed very concerned about the unintended consequences of the uncontrolled use of tongues, in particular, in public worship, urging restraint. He starts by reminding them, "Hey, don't tell me I am anti-gifts... I speak in tongues more than anybody, BUT..." and then goes forward to teach them that the way they were permitting chaos in their services was driving people away.

so do they or dont they.

[Pastor Gary]

The Bible is very clear in the book of Acts and Corinthians about the outward move of the spirit and the inward.

Let me challenge you to actually read the entire Book of Acts (not just the 2nd Chapter) with a highlighter in hand. Every time you see a phrase that suggests or states directly something that "the Spirit __________" (fill in the blank) highlight it. You will find 3 (or four depending on translation) instances of outward manifestation like tongues, and many MANY instances of other works of the Holy Spirit. We spent a day on this as a group in seminary, taught by a pentecostal professor. Great exercise.

do we believe that the outward signs and wonders of the new testament still happen today?

YES!

do we believe that they have a place in public worship.

That's the harder question. Paul seemed very concerned about the unintended consequences of the uncontrolled use of tongues, in particular, in public worship, urging restraint. He starts by reminding them, "Hey, don't tell me I am anti-gifts... I speak in tongues more than anybody, BUT..." and then goes forward to teach them that the way they were permitting chaos in their services was driving people away.

so do they or dont they.

They do if they are done in Biblical order. Is it in Biblical order for someone to self-edify by screaming out in tongues during a quiet moment in the sermon? No.

[dawgs10]

The Bible is very clear in the book of Acts and Corinthians about the outward move of the spirit and the inward.

Let me challenge you to actually read the entire Book of Acts (not just the 2nd Chapter) with a highlighter in hand. Every time you see a phrase that suggests or states directly something that "the Spirit __________" (fill in the blank) highlight it. You will find 3 (or four depending on translation) instances of outward manifestation like tongues, and many MANY instances of other works of the Holy Spirit. We spent a day on this as a group in seminary, taught by a pentecostal professor. Great exercise.

do we believe that the outward signs and wonders of the new testament still happen today?

YES!

do we believe that they have a place in public worship.

That's the harder question. Paul seemed very concerned about the unintended consequences of the uncontrolled use of tongues, in particular, in public worship, urging restraint. He starts by reminding them, "Hey, don't tell me I am anti-gifts... I speak in tongues more than anybody, BUT..." and then goes forward to teach them that the way they were permitting chaos in their services was driving people away.

so do they or dont they.

They do if they are done in Biblical order. Is it in Biblical order for someone to self-edify by screaming out in tongues during a quiet moment in the sermon? No.

thats what i have asking, for two days. if we use corint. 14 as a rule of thumb and the book of acts as our guide as the new testament church with this subject then well be fine. point made.

[paul]

The Bible is very clear in the book of Acts and Corinthians about the outward move of the spirit and the inward.

Let me challenge you to actually read the entire Book of Acts (not just the 2nd Chapter) with a highlighter in hand. Every time you see a phrase that suggests or states directly something that "the Spirit __________" (fill in the blank) highlight it. You will find 3 (or four depending on translation) instances of outward manifestation like tongues, and many MANY instances of other works of the Holy Spirit. We spent a day on this as a group in seminary, taught by a pentecostal professor. Great exercise.

do we believe that the outward signs and wonders of the new testament still happen today?

YES!

do we believe that they have a place in public worship.

That's the harder question. Paul seemed very concerned about the unintended consequences of the uncontrolled use of tongues, in particular, in public worship, urging restraint. He starts by reminding them, "Hey, don't tell me I am anti-gifts... I speak in tongues more than anybody, BUT..." and then goes forward to teach them that the way they were permitting chaos in their services was driving people away.

Paul

Personally I do not see it as a hard question at all. Paul was not anti tongues. His frustration I do not believe was centered arund some people being turned off. Rather a closer examination was that his concern was their view of tongues being a heavenly language and thereby those who used it were super spiritual. That was what paul was addressing.

Paul concern in 1 Cor. 14:27-28 make clear that the speaker is not estatic or out of control. Quite the opposite: the speakers must speak in turn, and they must remain silent if there is no one to interpret. From this point Paul apparently understood as mentioned in 1 Cor 13 that it was the tungues of angeles.

I quote from Gordon Fee: Paul, the Spirit and the People of god pg166-167

"Paul would simply not have understood the presence of the Holy soirit that did not also include such evidences of the Spirits working that he thermed "powers," which we translate "miracles "

" Those who need an occasional miracle to keep their belief in God alive and those who feed on such "faith" by promoting the miraculous as authenticating their "gospel" also lie outside Paul's prespective."

I donot see how, if, these gifts should be made manifest in the worship serve whould pose a problem. To me the greatest trageity that I see in the Modern Progressive pentecostal Church is the divorcement of the Gifts ( Pauls own term in context) in 1 Cor 12:8-10 from its clear setting of Christian Worship.

[Pastor Gary]

Interesting take, Paul. Your organization is, if I am not mistaken, trans-denominational and includes Pentecostals and non-pentecostals... Do you think your people who are not flowing openly in charismatic expression are less Christian? Less loving and compassionate? Less... what?

[paul]

Interesting take, Paul. Your organization is, if I am not mistaken, trans-denominational and includes Pentecostals and non-pentecostals... Do you think your people who are not flowing openly in charismatic expression are less Christian? Less loving and compassionate? Less... what?

It is not a question of Spirituality. I do not measure ones spirituality by their openness to the manifestation of what we call power gifts nor to speaking in tongues. If one comes to Christ, he is a new creature in Christ. As a matter of fact my understanding of that particular verse is that the true meaning of New Creature in Christ, is Paul's reference to not being Jew, Gentile, Bond or free..neither male nor female. But now through Christ we are one people of God, we are a new creature. My experience and I bellieve supported by scripture it to the presence of the Holy Spirit to be made manifest in our worship serve as a natural flow.

That being said, I understand that for Paul his references to the working of the Spirit is matter of fact. The reason is very simple and theological. He was born and raised within a Jewish tradition that believed in God and could not even have imagined God as not being all powerful. With this view of God as one who took an active intrest in the affairs of the universe and his people. Paul belileved that the coming of the Holy Spirit on the day of pentecost was the return of the very presence of god to dwell in and among His people. It would have never occured to Paul (IMHO) that the one who now is present with His people through the Spirit would do anything other than step in and work in the lives of His people.

This latter reasoning is why I feel that the ceasationist hold a view that is quite removed from the biblical prespective.

In our bible college in kano Nigeria, It is the only training school in the entire region. The student body is compossed of many different backgrounds. anglican, Baptist, African Church, Evangelicals, Pentecostal and Catholics. When I address then concerning the giftings I use a simple approach.

I simply ask the pastors if they ever prayed and asked God for wisdom tolead the curch?, when a mother brings a child dying do they ask God to touch and heal the child? have they ever asked God to give then discernment as to those who should be in leadership or those who might be trying to disrupt the church?. In every case I receive a yes response. Than I tell them that these are the gifts that God has promised us. They belong to us and we can exercise them. Not to worry about the tongues. Many have went on to receive the Tongues, some have not.

But for me to deny the moving of the Holy Spirit in worship would be short changing my people.

[pastorables]

His frustration I do not believe was centered arund some people being turned off. Rather a closer examination was that his concern was their view of tongues being a heavenly language and thereby those who used it were super spiritual. That was what paul was addressing.

Paul,

Though I am not necessarily in disagreement with your thoughts, I do believe Paul was concerned about the abuse of tongues and how unbelievers would view this unfamiliar phenomena.

1 Corinthians 14:23 Therefore if the whole church comes together in one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those who are uninformed or unbelievers, will they not say that you are out of your mind?

The closest examination of 1 Corinthians reveals Paul's chief concern was preaching the word of God and the saving of the soul, not the personal edification of the believer.

Blessings,
pa

[dolfan]

At best, those who would enjoy that kind of worship gathering can only say, "Well, you can't say it couldn't have been that way," and that may be true. But, I don't personally think we can say we're living biblically if we point to the absence of something from the bible as an example of its legitimate presence.

What if the question was "why can't I worship that way"?, with emotional gratitude and praise and adoration to our King?

Why can't I dance for the Lord? Why can't I shout glory to His name? Why can't I walk for Him, run for Him, dance, sing, shout, roll, bounce, fall, twirl, and be unruly for Him? Or I should say, be undignified. for Him.

A church shouldn't be so strict that it stifles growth and movement, yet it also can't be so loose that it defies structure and order. Balance is key.

You can. And, maybe even should. I'm no one's judge. I'm currently attending a church where some of that is encouraged, and I like that church. So, there y'go. I just look at the biblical record and wonder where the pattern exists there that links it all to what so many see and do that gets defined as "pentecostal".

[Brian]

At best, those who would enjoy that kind of worship gathering can only say, "Well, you can't say it couldn't have been that way," and that may be true. But, I don't personally think we can say we're living biblically if we point to the absence of something from the bible as an example of its legitimate presence.

What if the question was "why can't I worship that way"?, with emotional gratitude and praise and adoration to our King?

Why can't I dance for the Lord? Why can't I shout glory to His name? Why can't I walk for Him, run for Him, dance, sing, shout, roll, bounce, fall, twirl, and be unruly for Him? Or I should say, be undignified. for Him.

A church shouldn't be so strict that it stifles growth and movement, yet it also can't be so loose that it defies structure and order. Balance is key.

You can. And, maybe even should. I'm no one's judge. I'm currently attending a church where some of that is encouraged, and I like that church. So, there y'go. I just look at the biblical record and wonder where the pattern exists there that links it all to what so many see and do that gets defined as "pentecostal".

Yep, good stuff dolfan. I like a church where I feel the freedom to where if I was in need, if say something was wrong in my life or what have you....I would like to be able to bring it to the attention of the leadership and actually feel important enough that time will be made to address the issue. Not only in a private "meeting" with the pastor or deacons and be put on a prayer list. I mean real church for real people. And people, being real as they are, might just feel so led to shake a little leg when there in praise and worship to our Lord. That should, for the most part imho, be something the church tries to encourage.

I've seen some of the biggest sour pusses in my life in the pews of the church. That shouldn't be!

But now I'm not barkin' like a dog or cluckin' like a chicken for no man! LOL You won't find me drop kicking anyone or using a holy ghost machine gun either.