Companies considered dropping Health Care?

[dawgs10]

the fact is free market is pre depression. we have not had a real free market since the depression because the market and those running the market failed and destroyed lives, then the govt. moved in to contain it. ask the people living in the tennesse valley at the time if they wish the govt. had not started the tennesse valley athority. saved an entire region. i can name time after time free market failed and the govt. moved in. some good, some bad. but the fact is if people that run things would step up and fix it when its broken we would not need the govt. but it costs money to fix things. its like BP making billions yet not having up to date back ups for a oil spill. should we stop drilling for oil? no!! but because of BP putting the bottom line over the people living in that region the govt. will be more involved than ever before. it seems like the free market never learns from mistakes and then things like this happens. the health care law is a product of medical care being a business first instead of a service first. charging people a years salary for a weeks stay in the hospital and then insur. companies not wanting to pay and the turning it over to loss pools that flowed down to the tax dollars coming out of our pockets. so now the gov. says since you will not fix it we will. those running the corp. enviroment should learn from the past. if you dont your doomed to repeat it.

[dolfan]

Dawgs, hold your socks. I agree with you ----- some.

I'd tweak it this much: the cure is almost always worse than the disease. And, once in, government not only never leaves, but it overtakes the area in which it enters. Government's one concern --- and this is its only concern --- is the expansion of its own power and control. The criticism you have for corporations that put the bottom line first is one-sided.

I suppose I could state it another way. Government is the antithesis of love. Love seeks not its own. Government only seeks its own expansion, its own benefit. Love does not puff itself up. Government is not only bloated, it thrives on being bloated. Love endures. Government seeks someone else to blame for every hardship so that it can continue its power grabs. Love is patient. Government is opportunistic. Love is kind. Government induces dependency. Love does not envy. Government creates envy for its own power. Love is not proud and does not boast. Government stays in a continuous cycle of both in order to maintain power. Love keeps no record of wrongs. Government keeps tabs on everything you do. Love is not rude. Government is the IRS. Love does not delight in evil. Government does delight in evil of every sort and that discussion comprises a sizeable fraction of our discourse, so I won't repeat all the evils government delights in here; you already know them. Love rejoices with the truth. Government hides the truth when it serves the purposes of those in power, and then condemns the truth of God everywhere it asserts itself. Love never gives up. Government never gives up its power. Love always trusts. Government always demands fealty and uses trickery and manipulation to corner us into its trust. Love always hopes. Government is cynical.

Now, you may find as much about business to set against the "love chapter" recitations from 1 Cor. 13 as I have done with government. I probably won't argue with it. It is as true of us that we have yielded precious ground to the private sector aspects of the civil structures of society as it is true that we've done so to the government aspects. That's even more reason to be stirred to the point of indignation that we've been duped. But, there IS another way. It is the way of the Kingdom. But, my own opinion (which is worthless) is that we can't really learn the whole life way of God's Kingdom while we are still hedging our bets with reliance on the structures of society as we find them in the world's order of things. It brings the new and old wineskins lesson to mind. It makes me wonder aloud here whether I'm (I won't say "we" for fear of thrusting my opinion on anyone as a judgment against them) really a believer at all if I don't find a way to disconnect from this grid of deceit. But, I do ask you, Dawgs, do you not find these observations true?? And, if they are true, what to do??

[dawgs10]

i do find them ture. and we are facing a crisis that can only be helped by God. it always comes down to people doing the right thing. loving God and People. we cant love God and not love people. so here is the burning issue. do we dump trillions of dollars in social issues on the Church. the answer is no. do we pull the carpet out from under those trying to work and provide by freezing every social help. the answer is no. do we continue turning our heads while corp. america replaces people with the bottom line. no. no answers but sometimes it feels good to agree on what the issues are before we look for answers.

[MacUser]

its like BP making billions yet not having up to date back ups for a oil spill.

.

The oil spill is absolutely tragic beyond all accounts... but thinking the Federal Govt can step in and wave a magic wand ( in advance or after ) and it's all avoided/repaired is not logical. Napolitano stated this recently.. "The Administrationís first priority has been overseeing BP's efforts to stop the leaks. Frankly, the federal government has limited capability and expertise in responding to wellhead incidents on the seafloor."

I was in a corporate meeting yesterday most the day. The issue was reactive vs proactive partners. You can be proactive up to a certain level.. but when unknowns happen ( example: complete failures/disasters out of the norm ) then you can only be reactive and that typically equals down time and massive cleanup. Being proactive you can predict the maintenance $$ costs down to the penny.. but reactive is completely unknown. No was to prepare for the unknown.. period.

so now the gov. says since you will not fix it we will. ... if you dont your doomed to repeat it.

If the fix revolves around borrowing/spending like a politician and saddling us/children/grandchildren with out of control debt then they have done absolutely nothing but compound the problem and make it billions worse. Prolonging the problem into a generational one. You are absolute right that if we don't understand this.. we are doomed to repeat it.

[dawgs10]

i have never agreed with copy and paste answers that pulls sentences out a of paragraphs. its changes the meaning most of the time. read it again. do we want the govt. taking control? the answer is no. are we doing what it takes to avoid it. the answer is no. BP makes billions. the batteries should work and the back ups should be without question the best. they were not. why? and now they will have to do their jobs with more feds looking over their shoulder. the buck stopped with BP and now it does not. i would like to know what the budget is at BP for this type of issue. i am sure it was a fraction of a fraction of the profits. same goes with the health care law. same instance. same reaction.

[MacUser]

i have never agreed with copy and paste answers that pulls sentences out a of paragraphs. its changes the meaning most of the time. read it again. do we want the govt. taking control? the answer is no. are we doing what it takes to avoid it. the answer is no. BP makes billions. the batteries should work and the back ups should be without question the best. they were not. why? and now they will have to do their jobs with more feds looking over their shoulder. the buck stopped with BP and now it does not. i would like to know what the budget is at BP for this type of issue. i am sure it was a fraction of a fraction of the profits. same goes with the health care law. same instance. same reaction.

It's tragic beyond the anything.. but you didn't read my direct replies to specific comments with website links to back it up. You can't prepare for every unknown reactive situation. You can only budget success on working parts. And the Obama Admin gave SAFETY awards to BP and this rig... so they were already looking over BP's shoulder apparently to give such awards? If not.. again are they NOT doing their jobs? *sigh*

IF the answer for today's Health Care problems is a "LAW" that creates further out of control Generational debt on our Children and Grandchildren. That is not the ANSWER or FIX. Only spending the money you HAVE, cutting borrowed spending completely, and then repaying existing out of control debt is the responsible thing to do.

We can't be greedy today and expect our Children/Grandchildren to pay for our luxuries. It's not going to be easy.. but it must be done.

[dawgs10]

do we agree with the govt. taking control. no. are we doing what it takes to fix issues on our own. NO. will the govt. keep taking over untill the private sector takes responsibility on their own. yes. sorry it dont seem we are going to agree that the private sector has failed though out history and the govt. has taken over time after time. has it worked? sometimes it has. most of the time it hasnt. can we stop it? yes. how? people first, bottom line second. God over it all.

[MacUser]

do we agree with the govt. taking control. no. are we doing what it takes to fix issues on our own. NO. will the govt. keep taking over untill the private sector takes responsibility on their own. yes. sorry it dont seem we are going to agree that the private sector has failed though out history and the govt. has taken over time after time. has it worked? sometimes it has. most of the time it hasnt. can we stop it? yes. how? people first, bottom line second. God over it all.

Sadly.. we're also not going to agree on the out of control BORROWED spending is a major problem that has to be addressed immediately for the sake of future generations and solidity of our nation.

In my plea.. the real innocent people are coming first. How can we be so greedy that we cry for our modern luxuries at the expense of heaping debt on innocent children? You are willing to offer our Children, Grandchildren as second in your model of social justice. This is what I can not agree with and is the bottom line.

I think Jesus was pretty clear on harming the little ones. Yet he shows John's disciples that he's not about social justice.

[dawgs10]

so just so i understand mac, you dont agree with that the private sector has had many problems that has created alot of the issues we see now.

[MacUser]

so just so i understand mac, you dont agree with that the private sector has had many problems that has created alot of the issues we see now.

Oh Brother.. I simply pray to open our eyes so all areas are on the table. Where the private sector has failed ( as we all will where risks are taken ).. the Federal Govt has failed X10. If some of the private sector is bloated with large salaries, back room deals.. so proven is the Federal Govt on nearly ALL levels - AND they are also spending money that they DON'T have and don't generate - only tax or worse BORROW. A private business can't destroy/enslave your children's / grandchildren's future, write laws that destroy the social fabric of a Nation.

[dawgs10]

so just so i understand mac, you dont agree with that the private sector has had many problems that has created alot of the issues we see now.

Oh Brother.. I simply pray to open our eyes so all areas are on the table. Where the private sector has failed ( as we all will where risks are taken ).. the Federal Govt has failed X10. If some of the private sector is bloated with large salaries, back room deals.. so proven is the Federal Govt on nearly ALL levels - AND they are also spending money that they DON'T have and don't generate - only tax or worse BORROW. A private business can't destroy/enslave your children's / grandchildren's future, write laws that destroy the social fabric of a Nation.

Tell that to the people that during the great depression faced starvation because banks locked their doors or to those that had their whole life savings wiped out by enron or tyco. tell that to the person that would like to cash in their 401k to keep from losing their home but cant without leaving the company they work for. i can go on and on. untill you admit that its not all gov. and alot of the blame goes to the corp. fat cats we will never be able to see eye to eye on this. sure the govt. has failed us. sure they are taking away the rights of people left and right but you sir will not admit that the reason the door has been opened for this govt. takeover is because of the failures of the private sector. because of doctors and hospitals charging to much for a basic service to mankind. or an insur. company allowing someone to die of cancer while trying to figure out a way to save money on their case. i dont think that the feds should take over the private sector but the alternative is not that good. you will not admit wrong doing in any other area than the govt. it will not be fixed that way. EVER! if you dont feel this way then prove me wrong and say so.

[MacUser]

Tell that to the people that during the great depression faced starvation because banks locked their doors or to those that had their whole life savings wiped out by enron or tyco. tell that to the person that would like to cash in their 401k to keep from losing their home but cant without leaving the company they work for. i can go on and on. untill you admit that its not all gov. and alot of the blame goes to the corp. fat cats we will never be able to see eye to eye on this. sure the govt. has failed us. sure they are taking away the rights of people left and right but you sir will not admit that the reason the door has been opened for this govt. takeover is because of the failures of the private sector. because of doctors and hospitals charging to much for a basic service to mankind. or an insur. company allowing someone to die of cancer while trying to figure out a way to save money on their case. i dont think that the feds should take over the private sector but the alternative is not that good. you will not admit wrong doing in any other area than the govt. it will not be fixed that way. EVER! if you dont feel this way then prove me wrong and say so.

Oh Brother.. Again are we ever insured from failure? Absolutely not. You believe the lie and want this elusive security, insulation for accidents, natural disasters, mortgage problems, health problems, money problems. Again Social Engineering to protect people from [ insert your problems or failure here ]. No matter what fat cat you redistribute his wealth, no matter how much you tax, no matter how many new laws you get made. It's not possible.

On losing money. A client of mine had his entire retirement in Worldcom. A year before he was to retire he lost it ALL. He told me he risked it all with Worldcom and paid the price. His risk equalled $0. Did he stop? Cry? The lawbreakers were punished as criminals in a REACTIVE fashion and he was left to start over. Created a new retail outlet store and is building the wealth back from SCRATCH. You can't insure against failure my brother... only learn from the past via personal responsibility and get back up. I have lost thousands from investments. I can go on with my Dad and others I know also. You can't insure against all risk.

Healthcare Insurance needs competition. Competition lowers prices. I had affordable insurance 15 years ago. When Federal Govt regulation per state arrived. It exploded in costs.

Lastly.. I have not said that private sector is without fault.. I'm saying that you have to NOT have this myopic view against the private sector when Govt is enslaving your future children, grandchildren because of GREEDY extreme mismanagement and I think I've made my views clear on that above. Why do we give greater control to an entity that fails time and time again? Just as private sector operates within limits and laws.. so does the role of Govt has to be clearly outlined and restricted.

[dawgs10]

the simple fact is mac, you think that free market solves problems but your wrong. regulated free market is the only way to go because of the "fringe group" that is the market leaders such as enron, tyco, worldcom and on and on and on. the hourly employee is taking a chance. he is providing a skill for pay. no chance involved. he shows up, does his job and gets payment for that. but when there are back room deals sorry.

[dawgs10]

the simple fact is mac, you think that free market solves problems but your wrong. regulated free market is the only way to go because of the "fringe group" that is the market leaders such as enron, tyco, worldcom and on and on and on. the hourly employee is not taking a chance. he is providing a skill for pay. no chance involved. he shows up, does his job and gets payment for that. but when there are back room deals sorry.

[Full Quiver]

We haven't really had a free market since before Woodrow Wilson and the FED to be honest. That system is what gave us the Great Depression along with this recession. On that note there is another housing bubble looming and we are not done with this mess yet.


Yes it is the healthcare law and it is a shameful law and hopefully it will be a law that gets rescinded in the upcoming Congress.

Is that better Dawgs?

You say they need to clean up the law or add to it to close loopholes. Well they put those loopholes in their (Democrats) for their own purposes. They want a single payer system.