Petraeus Speaks Against FL Church

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paul
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Postby paul » September 8th, 2010, 9:37 am

I got news for all of you guys. Except the Lord come back quickly we ALL will face certain persecution and death by the hand of Muslims.


Sorry you are late to the meeting....it is not new news....

Either we condemn this false god and despicable way of life now and preach the Gospel to these folks or they will end our way of worship.


Again incorrect. Jesus said the Father seeks those who worship him in spirit and truth. Nothing can end our way of Worship.

God has already condemned them and they are in absolute violation of the 10 commandments
.

Thats His job and that of the Holy sprit...Not ours

This pastor is in this for the publicity I think and more or less has the right idea,


If this pastor is in it for the publicity then he by no means has the right idea..

I think all Korans should be burnt, but the only statement that can come of this is IF violence erupts then it absolutely proves that Muslims are horrible people that worship a false god and that believe that violence and murder are ok.


You have a right to your oponion. But I challenge you that if violence breaks out that Muslims are horrible people. You have to seperate Muslim from Islam. Muslims are people...good, bad, ugly.....Christians are people...good, bad, ugly.

Islam is a flase religion as as such needs to be exposed.

By the way, why was there no violence last year when the military burnt a slew of Holy Bibles that were printed in Afghan languages and deemed illegal to distribute
?

You answered your question...they were Holy Bibles and Most Christian choose not to respond the way Islam does.
You cannot effectively love and minister to others when you are obsessed with protecting
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Postby Pastor Bill » September 8th, 2010, 9:48 am

paul wrote:
By the way, why was there no violence last year when the military burnt a slew of Holy Bibles that were printed in Afghan languages and deemed illegal to distribute
?

You answered your question...they were Holy Bibles and Most Christian choose not to respond the way Islam does.


I had not really thought of it that way, but you are right. Personally, my faith is not in a physical Bible, that's just paper, ink and maybe a pretty leather cover. mine has rips, stains and the binding is coming off, they wear out and will all one day burn, BUT His Word is buried in my heart, and The Word made flesh was torn, beaten and discarded as well on this earth, so it's fitting. BUT the power and Presence of THE WORD lives on and THAT is where my faith is built.

burn all the paper and ink you want, my religion isn't that shallow.
"Why would God allow Hitler his chapter in history? Why would God send a whale to swallow Jonah or turn a woman into a pillar of salt? Surely there were other ways. But I'll leave the particular methods of God to God."
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Postby dolfan » September 8th, 2010, 11:20 am

TW, you're right about the cartoon. My question is, though, is it common? It may be irrelevant to ask it now, though since this thing has blown up into such an international news story. Common or not, I guess the question is how likely is it to result in dead Christians?

I decided to follow Paul's lead and just contact the guy myself. I don't know that my opinion mirrors anyone's here on the particulars, but I figured the best way to poke holes that he may see in his own argument is not to butt heads with him. Here's what I wrote, and I'd ask everyone to do the same in your own way. You can do it by the contacts link on his church's website at www dot doveworld dot org

Pastor Jones,

I'm a Christian in north Alabama. I share your opinion that Islam is a scourge on the planet. We have different views on why that matters; I believe that society cannot be reformed even by the most adamantly Christianized civil government. In other words, sir, if every evangelical, Bible-believing follower of Jesus Christ were to up and vote, be heard in political circles of power, etc., we'd still have believers piloting a sinking ship. It wouldn't even sink more slowly.

There simply is no reformation of society, no restoration. I disagree with you that God has a vision for either of them. The end of the matter is that God will, by His own hand, destroy all of it. That much is immutable. We Christians, in whatever nation and especially in America, are wholly incapable of bringing the world or even our nation to a point of "improvement" that God will find pleasing. It simply is not our role, and it is simply not His desire.

When confronted with the ultimate political power play, a situation where Jesus could have been tempted to mull over a really historical political career, here's what He said: "My kingdom is not of this world." That's always been so and ever shall be true.

I understand your motivations in wanting to follow through on this pyre of Korans. But, might I suggest that you are very off-base here. Burning these Korans is not going to change one iota of the problems you cite in all 15 of your reasons to burn them. Even if awareness is raised (a big "IF", mind you, since so many are so angry with you and it is unlikely they'll follow your reasoning), even if it IS raised, is it now going to be more so by completing this gesture?? It seems to me that you have already expanded your own pulpit to as large a stage as you'll find with this anti-Koran message.

I recommend another track. I recommend, in the name and love of our Lord Jesus, that you prayerfully announce that you have reconsidered the need for the actual burning of the Koran. I would ask that you announce also, with that, the success of your effort that you have made it known that true Christian faith must oppose Islam as a matter of spiritual warfare. I wish you would announce along with your decision not to burn Korans a world-wide prayer day where Christians may take heart against incursions of Islam throughout the world.

Read the oppressions that occur in Islamic nations on websites of Voice of the Martyrs, for example. Within 15 minutes, you can read accounts of brave Christians in Muslim lands doing God's work of preaching the Gospel of Christ. Let me ask you this: If God is truly in need of burning Korans in the world, isn't He capable of raising up prophets where Muslims already dominate but where Christianity is preached anyway?? Could God not easily stand against Islam by inspiring pastors, believers and teachers in our own faith to burn Korans in, say, Afghanistan??? Or, do you think that these brave men are somehow too afraid to make a stand? Might it be that the real stand that God is making is through them and their methods of apostolic evangelism and not through demonstrations such as your planned Koran-burning?

It is my prayer that you will stop and decide and announce that you will not burn the Korans. You're right --- the Koran is a book of Satan and Islam is the devil's counterfeit to genuine faith in God. But, Pastor Jones, you're also very, very wrong that doing this is going to matter. You simply must change your mind, sir. This is a terrible, terrible error on your part if you follow through with it. I ask you, please, don't do this. This is not God's way of dealing with Islam.


And, of course, I didn't do it anonymously.
Human government bears the same relation to hell as the church bears to heaven. (David Lipscomb, On Civil Government, 72).

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Postby MacUser » September 8th, 2010, 12:31 pm

Simply Mind Blowing.

I simply refuse to believe that the actions of one opinionated individual will derail all our GOODWILL outreach efforts ( on both sides ) and cause unmitigated chaos.

If so.. they have given to untold masses the power to enrage and destroy everything they themselves have worked so hard for and hold dear.

How can one hold such power? If so.. this is a weapon and must be defused now. BECAUSE if it's not this guy today.. it will be another tomorrow and the day after that.

How? What we must request be changed is the heart of the offended. The actions of one lone wolf does not reflect on everyone here. Expressing that we are INDIVIDUALS here in America with abundant Religious Freedoms and do not support this specific action and request acceptance for our diverse opinions as we do for theirs.

What a FANTASTIC opportunity this is to SHARE how we as Christians have had to endure our own rejection, ridicule, ... or "cross" for our belief system. Then explain how it's revealed through our own Faith.

We can agree to not judge all muslims by the actions of 9/11 if they will not Judge us by one lone wolf also on 9/11.

It must be defused... but not how everyone is thinking.
If not.. this will never end. I also understand that I'm just spouting theory at this point.. but which will save more Christian and Muslim lives in the end?

The genie is out of the bottle.
Chris -

... Behold, the Lamb of God, that taketh away the sin of the world!
John 1:29

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Postby Paully_44 » September 8th, 2010, 12:54 pm

The goofball as so eloquently put by dolfan. The man is a loon and shouldnt be granted his 2 minutes of "fame".

He is no better than those he "fights against" with his intolerance.
Let the wild rumpus start!

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Postby dolfan » September 8th, 2010, 3:54 pm

He's a goofball, a loon, etc. But, I believe he sincerely believes he's right. I don't think this started out (and time may prove me wrong) as an effort to get fame. I know he uses the term "International" in labeling burn-a-Koran day, but I can count local churches here where I live who have grandiose sounding outreach names in their titles and they're just humble little local churches. So, I'm not yet convinced this guy started this to get fame. I think he's milking it now that it has found him, but probably not anymore than any of us who live obscurely might do if it found us. Not defending him, but as I watch the videos of his interview on ABC News, he just does not strike me as an attention hound. Nutty? Goofy? Sure, inarguably. Sincere?? I really think so.

So, how do you combat that? I think you have to speak clearly, matter of factly, but not with insults. I just don't think that'll work. Nothing may.

Mac, I really do hear you, man. I can see this in a few different ways. But, for me, while I don't think this will result in a sort of holocaust of Christians by Muslims around the world, there are many believers already vulnerable and this tempest is more than one in a teapot -- now. I think it is intentionally goaded on by an Islamophile media now, too. Be that or not, I'll take Paul's word as a guy who's been there/done that in these places and with these people. If any Christians are endangered by what is otherwise a pointless exercise --- and this IS a pointless exercise by Terry Jones, sincerely or not --- the "ledger" here is all cost and no gain near as I can tell. I am one who thinks he should be told by Christians to stop.
Human government bears the same relation to hell as the church bears to heaven. (David Lipscomb, On Civil Government, 72).

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Postby MacUser » September 8th, 2010, 4:19 pm

Thanks and I agree with you... but stress the need to seek deeper preemptive resolutions as this "new weapon" ( if ignored and left loaded ) has the potential to grow beyond just a single individual.

If it does.. What then? All our condemnations will go on deaf ears.
Chris -



... Behold, the Lamb of God, that taketh away the sin of the world!

John 1:29

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paul
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Postby paul » September 8th, 2010, 5:19 pm

One of the questions that seems to come up is; can and will thie actions if taken by this pastor really result in the death of some Christians?

I could site many cases where the death of Christians occured for far less offenses than burning a Koran. In 2001 Shortly after 9/11 I was in kano Nigeria..99% Muslim and extremely violent. Riots were the norm generally resulting in the death of Christians and the burning of Churches. Most all the riots began on Friday following prayers in the Mosque. When events like the palstinian crisis in Jerusalem, a cartoon, a slight negative remark abouot their prophet Radical Cleric will use these opportunities to arouse anger and hatred and will call for violence. The people wll leave the Mosque and head for what is generally called "Christian Quarters" and go on a rampage killing and burning.

The week I was in kano. the news reported 300 Christians killed 13 churches burn down. Though we know personally the death toll was far greater.

When I was in pakistan a few months ago. someone place a derogatory remark about their prophet on facebook. They began to march in the streets and the Christian areas were put on high alert.

Now imagine the actual burning of the Koran. Yes I fully expect to hear not so good news as to what will befall many believers.

To use the excuse that we can not be afraid, we must stand up and denounce Islam and Muslim. I stand amazed at the strength and character of the believers in these countries. Daily placing their lives in peril in order to share the Love and Grace and compassion of Jesus Christ to those who in many cases would destroy them.

Does he have a right to burn the Koran ? sure. But I am reminded of a few passages from the Apostle Paul.. For me all things are legal but not expedient....and do not return evil for evil...but overcome evil with good....
You cannot effectively love and minister to others when you are obsessed with protecting

and preserving yourself.

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Postby Full Quiver » September 9th, 2010, 3:29 am

Quote:
I got news for all of you guys. Except the Lord come back quickly we ALL will face certain persecution and death by the hand of Muslims.


Sorry you are late to the meeting....it is not new news....

Quote:
Either we condemn this false god and despicable way of life now and preach the Gospel to these folks or they will end our way of worship.


Again incorrect. Jesus said the Father seeks those who worship him in spirit and truth. Nothing can end our way of Worship.

Quote:
God has already condemned them and they are in absolute violation of the 10 commandments
.

Thats His job and that of the Holy sprit...Not ours

Quote:
This pastor is in this for the publicity I think and more or less has the right idea,


If this pastor is in it for the publicity then he by no means has the right idea..

Quote:
I think all Korans should be burnt, but the only statement that can come of this is IF violence erupts then it absolutely proves that Muslims are horrible people that worship a false god and that believe that violence and murder are ok.


You have a right to your oponion. But I challenge you that if violence breaks out that Muslims are horrible people. You have to seperate Muslim from Islam. Muslims are people...good, bad, ugly.....Christians are people...good, bad, ugly.

Islam is a flase religion as as such needs to be exposed.

Quote:
By the way, why was there no violence last year when the military burnt a slew of Holy Bibles that were printed in Afghan languages and deemed illegal to distribute
?

You answered your question...they were Holy Bibles and Most Christian choose not to respond the way Islam does.




Paul, God SEEKS those that will worship Him in spirit and in truth which tells us that such can't be found just anywhere.

I don't have to separate Muslims from Islam because without Islam there are no Muslims and without Muslims there is no Islam. Muslims are not a race of people or an ethnic group. They are a people of many races and ethnicity that choose a horrible political and government system and whom worship a false god. Also they cling to violence and hatred of those that do not make the same bad choices that they do.

Those that choose Islam are bad people. How can you be anything else if you say let's stone those that disagree with us, let's enact the death penalty on all those that convert from Islam to another belief. Sure, that makes a good person. In fact, none are good my friend, no not one and if you disagree with that then take it up with Jesus Christ because ONLY the Father is good.

Christians can only be measured against Christ. If one does as Christ did and says to do then they are a Christian.

Likewise Muslims MUST be measured against Mohammad. Unless they do as he did then they are not practicing what he taught. He killed 3,000, he raped, he was a pedophile having married a 6 year old girl, he is no doubt in hell today.


I amazed that some think we should be tolerant of Islam. When they show up at your door ready to rape your wives and behead you just remember that you were tolerant.
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Others

Postby Martha » September 9th, 2010, 3:46 am

Looks like others are getting on the band wagon.

http://www.waff.com/Global/story.asp?S=13124425

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Postby RamboPreacher » September 9th, 2010, 3:54 am

they can't have my Quran. no book burning here.
i wonder if he has actually read it.

:roll:
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from someone that knows

Postby dawgs10 » September 9th, 2010, 4:36 am

Last night before wens. night Bible study a Leader in COGOP said this to the class. "it is very serious and dangerous for Christian ministers throughout the world". He is very concered for the part of the world that he oversees and for the national and local ministers in many countries. my opinion is this.How can a stupid stunt like this be defended. this is not just someone whithin their rights. this is a danger to national defense and for many Americans and Christians world wide. it should be stopped with the same school of thinking that the patriot act was defended as law. step in and stop it.

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Re: Others

Postby MacUser » September 9th, 2010, 6:03 am

Martha wrote:Looks like others are getting on the band wagon.

http://www.waff.com/Global/story.asp?S=13124425


*Sigh* so it already begins...
Dolfan, Paul... THIS was my point.

The Genie is OUT of the Bottle.
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... Behold, the Lamb of God, that taketh away the sin of the world!

John 1:29

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Postby Brian » September 9th, 2010, 6:52 am

Pastor Bill wrote:......it is just a "our God is better than your god" childish act, and it will do more to push people away from the truth.......


Don't mean to highjack the thread, but our God IS better than ANY other god!

Our God: Chris Tomlin
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paul
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Postby paul » September 9th, 2010, 7:35 am

Full Quiver said:

Paul, God SEEKS those that will worship Him in spirit and in truth which tells us that such can't be found just anywhere.

I don't have to separate Muslims from Islam because without Islam there are no Muslims and without Muslims there is no Islam. Muslims are not a race of people or an ethnic group. They are a people of many races and ethnicity that choose a horrible political and government system and whom worship a false god. Also they cling to violence and hatred of those that do not make the same bad choices that they do.


You do this very thing on a regular basis: Americans define themselves to the most part as Christians, yet you seperate yourself from the majority by declaring that you are a born again believer, you futher seperate yourself from those born again believers by saying that you are a Spirit Filled believer. A few years ago you would have went futher by declaring that you were set apart by belonging to a select exclusive group...the one and only.

To be a christian is not tobe tied to every fanical, warped intpretation of the scriptures and bazar act caried out by some. To be Muslim does not tie that person to every demonic act carried out in the name od Allah.

Be assured that I am not in any way tolerating the False Religion of Islam. I work among them on a regular basis. I love them with the love of Christ. But I will not cut off their head just to cram the gospel down their throat.
You cannot effectively love and minister to others when you are obsessed with protecting

and preserving yourself.


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