Petraeus Speaks Against FL Church

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Brian
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Postby Brian » September 13th, 2010, 8:52 pm

dolfan wrote:Brian, I find no quarrel with any historical evidence of the Christian faith of America's founders. Let's agree that they were all devout men of sound Christian faith. Question: So, what?

Please don't take me as being flippant about them. I'm not. But, what they offer is a counterfeit to the kingdom of God.


Agreed. But man it sure would have been a better place to dwell (America) in the mean time, had she not turned her back on God to where His "propitious smiles" were'nt withdrawn. IMHO of course :wink:

good stuff.......
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Postby dolfan » September 14th, 2010, 3:38 am

Brian wrote:
Agreed. But man it sure would have been a better place to dwell (America) in the mean time, had she not turned her back on God to where His "propitious smiles" were'nt withdrawn. IMHO of course :wink:


But, as I understand things, however skewed it may or may not be, that's a pretty big point. America, as a nation, never had a "national face" with which to seek God, nor a "national back" to turn on Him. God is not dealing with America the nation. It is to the people whom He has called out from wherever to Himself that He gives His propitious smiles. To Him, America is a non-entity. It is not to be saved, just as all other nations, governments or cultures are not to be saved, not to be an object of His redemptive work.

We resist this thought for many reasons. One is that we're certainly reared, trained and raised to believe the opposite. There are many (and I am growing to hate this word) "narratives" about America and its greatness (it is also true of every other country or culture, but since this one's where we live, que sera sera to the others for now). Being oriented in any number of them, we each carry our own "America within", so to speak. That is a problem, I've learned, because it is the kingdom of God that is "within you", and the "America within" has claims on us that are contrary to the claims of God. We actually prefer those claims of the America within because they come with a promise (an illusory one) of a bound up roll of opportunity, prosperity, order, and liberty. God's claims on us demand complete sacrifice (no exhaustive list of scriptural admonitions in this regard needed, I trust). America promises us power to accomplish the benefits of those other "promises" it makes, and its mechanism is government and business (and I use the singular "mechanism" because the two work as one essentially); its power is realized through hostile processes (political processes for which no other means of operation exist but those which are hostile and which deplete the power of some other opposing interest). The kingdom of God promises us power that doesn't deplete God in the least, and the power is to do the works of God on Earth, to really and actuallly live in His Kingdom-without-end. There is no opposing interest, only imperfect understanding which does not disconcert Him at all and over and through which He fully maintains control and guides us until the final eschaton of everything when we shall "see Him as He is". But, because it costs us everything, we really like the "America within" better, flavored with so much of Christianity that it makes both a palatable even if quite poisoned mixture.
Human government bears the same relation to hell as the church bears to heaven. (David Lipscomb, On Civil Government, 72).

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Postby MacUser » September 14th, 2010, 9:12 am

Just as John the Baptist was offended that Jesus didn't come to correct all the social wrongs of HIS time and day.. neither has Jesus came to correct all our Social ills either.

Matthew 11:2-6
2. Now when John had heard in the prison the works of Christ, he sent two of his disciples, 3. And said unto him, Art thou he that should come, or do we look for another? 4. Jesus answered and said unto them, Go and shew John again those things which ye do hear and see: 5. The blind receive their sight, and the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, and the poor have the gospel preached to them.

6. And blessed is he, whosoever shall not be offended in me.


Jesus came to restore our relationship back to the Father. That's it. If our image of God differs from Jesus.. then we are basically idolators or worshiping a false image. Jesus represented a GOD that was extremely GOOD, LOVES despite our flaws, Dined/Wined Fellow shipped with Sinners, & Condemned no one. etc

John 3:17
For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.



How do we know Islam is false? It doesn't point to Jesus.


Btw.. America is a GOOD seed planted by our forefathers that is now a tree that enable us to be able to take a rest in it's branches. Do we continue to cherish it so it can continue to grow for future generations of shade or chop our own rest down?
Chris -

... Behold, the Lamb of God, that taketh away the sin of the world!
John 1:29

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Postby dolfan » September 14th, 2010, 10:12 am

.....or, do we live responsibly and peaceably among the lost while having no part in even the most basic of their institutions?

If government were merely an activity that could be easily bypassed, this would be simple stuff. But, it isn't. It inhabits every aspect of our lives and it insists on having its own way with us. To belong is to serve it. There is no such thing as serving it in a Christian way or making it more Christian like or even more Christian friendly without first yielding to its threshhold demand of surrender.

Let me use lust as an analogy. We're told to flee youthful lusts. We're commanded not to even look on someone we're not married to with lustful thoughts. We see practical examples of this decision by Joseph when he ran as hard as he could from Potiphar's wife's seductions. The Proverbs tell us not to lust after a woman in our hearts after her beauty nor to let her beauty captivate us with our eyes. The common theme in the teaching of Scripture is that lust can't be fought. It must be fleed. To fight it is to yield to its threshhold demand that we encounter it at all. Lust wins every scrum but it is not as fleet of foot as we are. Fleeing is a perfectly valid strategy. Even John Piper agrees; on his website, he provides an acrostic for dealing with lust ("ANTHEM"), and watch the fleeing words he uses; AVOID temptation; Say NO to every lustful thought within 5 seconds; TURN your mind toward Christ forcefully; HOLD the promises of Christ firmly in mind; ENJOY Jesus and His promises, benefits; MOVE into a useful activity away from idleness and vulnerability. In a word, flee. To engage against lust in a clash is to lose the battle. Fight or flight? Flight, every time.

Living as willing citizens in the order of our world, citizens of America and our civil governments, requires us to submit to its authority. That is its threshhold demand and once crossed, there is nothing within it that is redeemable anymore than once in the embrace of an adulterous tryst it can be redeemed into something that honors God. In both cases, the only way up is the way out.

You see, this is not a tree of protection in which we currently sit. It puzzles me how we can call this nation -- and all that it does to us -- a rest when, just as Samuel warned Israel of the danger of having kings, it requires more and more and more of us and insists on more and more and more control of us. It isn't just America, but every nation that invariably and inexorably moves in this direction at one speed or another. If Jesus is our rest, how is it that the state supplants Him and becomes our rest without that exercise being one of idolatry??

We will agree that Jesus did not come to institute a social reform package. He has already implemented a way and means of rebirth, not reform. The only form of justice that exists, in truth, is the justice of God exercised by those in Christ to those in Christ. Real justice is exclusive to the Body of Christ. To the extent that we interact with those outside of Christ, justice is found in converting them but not otherwise. Kindnesses and beneficient acts are surely real to them, but there is no justice in these unless the targets of our Christ-like love are born again. I mean, what else is there??
Human government bears the same relation to hell as the church bears to heaven. (David Lipscomb, On Civil Government, 72).

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Postby Brian » September 14th, 2010, 10:33 am

dolfan, I suppose my point is that God desires us to have life, and life more abundantly. John 10:10
And in applying that to "living standards" I suppose that means to enjoy life, spend quality time with loved ones, build relationships based on love and a desire to show that love to our neighbors and in turn they will see the light of Christ and also turn to Him for there portion of "abundant life".

Of course the "Life" is Christ, and receiving Him and being brought into His kingdom is what abundant life is really about, but is that the extent of it? (not that there is anything lacking in that)

I asked one time whether or not God ever intended for us to be concerned with things like advancements in technology, building the next race car, designing the coolest flat panel tv, or coming up with the next generation ipod etc etc. Are we not suppose to do those things? Or do they fall under the "abundant life" category?

And lets not forget about living that life out, the life of Christ, in public. America is (or has been) rather unique in our expressions of faith. More so than say China, or an Islamic nation where living out Christ is basically forbidden.
And how is it considered abundant life in a country like Communist Russia
when they use to ration food or toilet paper? :wink:

So while I agree that there is no collective salvation to be found in the American dream I would certainly rather live out my abundant life in Christ here rather than Iran. :P
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Postby MacUser » September 14th, 2010, 12:08 pm

dolfan wrote:Let me use lust as an analogy.


Hey bro are you any better than Jesus? hehe
Jesus lusted... consult your greek.

Luke 22:15-20

When Jesus said, “with desire I have desired,” he was saying in Greek, ... had said, “with great lust I have lusted to eat this Passover with you.

Also what you have to understand is that Jesus taught under the law speaking directly to Jews and treated his disciples as servants and taught them as servants until His groundbreaking covenant meal. Then it all changes.. in John 15:15 we are no longer servants.. but covenant friends ( Sons and Daughters ). Introduces the Holy Spirit and brings in a New Order.

Jesus came for the sole purpose of restoring the Father's image, showing His Goodness and bringing forth many Sons. Basically Heirs as He is the first born of many!!

Jesus was a SON, Lived as a SON, Loved like God's SON and Made US ALSO SONS - Heirs... if we but believe. That was His purpose and he completed exactly what he set out to do.

I just love this fact. Sorry if I ignored the rest... :lol:
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... Behold, the Lamb of God, that taketh away the sin of the world!

John 1:29

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Postby oletimer » September 14th, 2010, 2:52 pm

Lu 22:15 And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer:

Strong's Greek Dictionary
1937. epithumeo
Search for G1937 in KJVSL
 epithumeo ep-ee-thoo-meh'-o
from 1909 and 2372; to set the heart upon, i.e. long for (rightfully or otherwise):--covet, desire, would fain, lust (after).

MacUser you said that;
When Jesus said, “with desire I have desired,” he was saying in Greek, ... had said, “with great lust I have lusted to eat this Passover with you.

MacUser you would have us to believe that Jesus “lusted”, but going back to context you pulled the wron g definition for the context. You chose lust knowing that it was out of context. I believe that if you will go back to the Greek, then you will find also the term “to set the heart upon” which is more in the context of what He was saying.

I don’t think it cute to misconstrue and belittle the sayings and intentions of Christ. Besides there a lot of people who view these forums and posts that want know the difference and will take it and run with it. They will say that if Jesus did it then it will be OK for us to do it, when in essence in context that is not what he said. That is He didn’t say that I have lusted, but more of (and I like how that JFB put it in his commentary as I feel that he has a better handle on it)

Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Commentary
Lu 22:15
15. With desire . . . desired--"earnestly have I longed"
God Bless

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Postby dolfan » September 14th, 2010, 6:14 pm

Oletimer, I can appreciate what you're saying, but I don't think MacUser is taking "lust" lightly, here. Actually, he has a point --- up to a point. :wink: But, he's "in on it".

The Greek for "desire" there (actually two forms of the same basic word are used in the phrase) is also translated as "lust" in other contexts. It is a deep longing, an "I really, really, really, really want". Of course, the object of the desire is the difference, isn't it?

MacUser knows full well that Jesus did not "lust"; but he also knows that Jesus "desired with desire" -- which is a mighty strong way of wording what He felt. He's making the bigger point that Jesus' goal is not to establish a social order in the world, but that He is the revelation of His Father to those who God chooses to become His sons, to those who receive Him ("to them gave He power to become the sons of God....." Jn 1:12).

Hey, Mac, have you read this sermon by Spurgeon? http://www.spurgeon.org/sermons/0339.htm

I think you'll like it.
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Postby Full Quiver » September 15th, 2010, 5:14 am

Jesus was tempted just as we are (if He wasn't then that changes everything) and according to the book of James one cannot be tempted unless they have lust. Lust is not a sin; to be drawn away and enticed because of that lust is different. Plain and simply, that's Bible and traditional Christianity needs to grow up and get over it.

Guys, if you never lusted for your wife then you would have never married her. Lust is not bad in and of itself. it must be tempered with the Word of God however.
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Postby MacUser » September 15th, 2010, 5:21 am

dolfan wrote:The Greek for "desire" there (actually two forms of the same basic word are used in the phrase) is also translated as "lust" in other contexts. It is a deep longing, an "I really, really, really, really want". Of course, the object of the desire is the difference, isn't it?


Bingo Dolfan.. the honorable King James version is a terrible translation and I'm finding so much from researching original Greek meanings.

Jesus could hardly contain himself because up to this point HE ALSO taught under the Law and literally exploded because He was released to reveal... He was exuberant!! , with GREAT passion/desire!!! ( IE: BRIDEGROOM LUSTING - a STRONG desire) to now finally able to share what He has really come to do. The Pinnacle of God's Goodness.

Restoring the intimate relationship with the Father
-verses-
Correct all/kill Enemies with Fire and Damnation.

Jesus wasn't insulted or offended by what I posted in the slightest. It's what HE said! Man's religious nature can be offended just as John the Baptists was... but not mine any longer.. because Jesus has set me FREE!


:lol: :lol:
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... Behold, the Lamb of God, that taketh away the sin of the world!

John 1:29

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Postby RamboPreacher » September 15th, 2010, 7:43 am

you'll find a similar paradigm with the difference in tradition and teaching. but that for another thread...
Thanks, Brent "RamboPreacher" Hoefling

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Postby oletimer » September 15th, 2010, 5:49 pm

dolfan wrote:

is also translated as "lust" in other contexts.


Dolfan you said the magic word, "context" and MacUser is out of context.

Full Quiver Posted:

Jesus was tempted just as we are (if He wasn't then that changes everything) and according to the book of James one cannot be tempted unless they have lust. Lust is not a sin; to be drawn away and enticed because of that lust is different. Plain and simply, that's Bible and traditional Christianity needs to grow up and get over it.

Guys, if you never lusted for your wife then you would have never married her. Lust is not bad in and of itself. it must be tempered with the Word of God however.


Lust is not a sin
Come on Danny you can do better then that, for you to be right then Jesus will have to be wrong and I will go with Jesus being right. Being tempted is not lust, but having sexual desire for is. Being attracted to a girl is not sin, but trying to figure a way to get her in bed (IS).

All of it goes back to (CONTEXT).

Mt 5:28
But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

Dont try to confuse "tempted" with "lust".
Jas 1:12
Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him. ---------- I don't think that temptation becomes lust until one owns the temptation as their own, then that one becomes enticed "(enticed--literally, "taken with a bait," as fish are.)"

Jas 1:16
Do not err, my beloved brethren.------ The meaning of James's letter here was warning not to "err"

Heb 4:15
For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.-------Can one be tempte without being in sin, I think so as long as he

1Co 10:13
There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

I know that this geting long and I need to say more then just posted.
God Bless

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Postby dolfan » September 16th, 2010, 3:28 am

Maybe this has a lot more to do with the Koran thing than I first thought.

MacUser points out something, without using the phrase, that I've heard somewhere else (can't recall) -- but it is a "lust for God". I'm not sure enough about the whole nature of lust to say that that's even possible or not, but I can imagine a "lust for God" two different ways.

First, the really good one. David wrote that as a deer pants for water, my soul longs for you, O God. Maybe that's more like thirst than lust. But, think about it: Lust --- the bad kind we all agree on --- tells us that we gotta have it, that having "it" is the only way to get satisfaction, and that this satisfaction is a must-have. We know that about lust. That's a reason why you have to run from it and can't stand and fight it. The writer of one Proverb says that trying that strategy is like putting fire in your lap without burning your clothes.

What about a good lust? Thirst is that impulse to drink, and when strong enough it is a drive to drink that is so strong that when you do get to a cold, tall glass of water (or Diet Mt. Dew!!!) that you'll "guzzle" it down. (Que the sound effect of the 3 Stooges drinking a glass jug of water. :lol: ) That's the kind of impulse toward God that David described in the psalm, at least that's the impression I get. I really never gave much thought to that as a kind of lust, but the Greek grammar suggests that the word is neutral enough to be applied to both.

So, let's take that as a given, then. If it be so, what is this thing that drives a guy like Terry Jones to burn a Koran. Take him at his own words about what motivated him. He said that it was a conviction that he felt from God to do it. He backed up, saying God told him not to do it, not now, not ever. Which one of these was a lust for God? Both? (Did he truly, sincerely think that God wanted him to do it only to "show" him something about Himself through stopping him from it? Well, we can't say God never worked that way, can we Abraham and Issac? :lol:) Neither? (Was he just swept up in his own cloud of misguided belief and then it took on a life much bigger than he ever thought and he backed down?) Something in between???

What does all of this suggest about being a God-follower vs. being a God-chaser? (Apologies to Tommy Tenney, whose book I never read nor plan to, for borrowing his trademark.) To switch analogies, it makes me think of football in a way. We've seen defenses that overpursue, who'll run right past the blockers but fail to get in the right position to tackle and miss the ball-carrier; when that happens on a blitz, the play gets big yards where everyone has run past the runner. Can we "overpursue" God? Can we run right past Him when we say we are running for or to Him??
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Postby MacUser » September 16th, 2010, 3:52 am

oletimer wrote:Dolfan you said the magic word, "context" and MacUser is out of context.


I'm sorry my brother but my phrase was in complete context. CONTEXT is key here and I'm so glad you brought that up.

The old covenant was between Mt Sinai and The Cross. Understand this. It's key. Jesus also taught UNDER the Law ( reason why he held his identity secret until the right time ) and a few of your references are basically Him reversing the Law back on the Pharisees and Jews ( not Gentiles ). Showing them that they are incapable of keeping much less convicting with the Law.

We as Gentiles were never meant to be under the Law. ( Yet the Church has somehow wholly adopted it's self righteousness ) We are only received the GIFT!!.. the promise of the Holy Spirit without the borrowed offenses of the Law.

Jesus completed the Law and done away with it by paying the price that only He could... then setup a BRAND NEW SYSTEM. Restored the relationship back to the Father. ( So deep here )

He SET US FREE. Dangerously Free. Yet guided by only the GIFT. The Holy Spirit.

Galatians 5:16,18 (ASV)
16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. 18 But if ye are led by the Spirit, ye are not under the law.


All of this is so interwoven and I pray revelation on you.
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... Behold, the Lamb of God, that taketh away the sin of the world!

John 1:29

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Postby oletimer » September 19th, 2010, 4:58 pm

MacUser wrote:
I'm sorry my brother but my phrase was in complete context. CONTEXT is key here and I'm so glad you brought that up.


Sorry but you've got the one key. Went back to my post to see if there was something I missed, nope you are still out of context.

The old covenant was between Mt Sinai and The Cross. Understand this. It's key


MacUser there are two thing that bother me about this and they are 1. what has that got to do with what we're talking about. What has the covenant got to do with lust and temptation. 2. The covenant at Mt Sinai was with the Law and Israel's covenant with God to obey the Law.

The "Cross" here is a clue, Jesus hung on it. "CONTEXT"

All of this is so interwoven and I pray revelation on you.


And I pray that you do some contextual study and get your facts right.

He SET US FREE. Dangerously Free. Yet guided by only the GIFT. The Holy Spirit
.

Here is again where you do err. The Word will be in agreement with THE Holy Ghost or something is wrong. I would be willing to say that the spirit is not the Holy Ghost, as the Holy Ghost will not lead us a stray from the Word. Oh yes God is not give you a revelation and keep it from every body else.
God Bless


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