tithing

[lance82]

Scooter, "Perverted prism", "imagine"; what world have you been living in? It is only perverse in the sense that people ARE in these circumstances and we ARE placing these weights around their necks by teaching tithing as a "no room for less" doctrine when neither Christ, Peter, Paul, or any other Apostle did. I have not dreamt up these scenarios. I personally know people in these situations. Should we suggest that a tithe is not required from them, but is from those who can afford it? What is legit for one is legit for all. What should my answer be to any of these people when the headquarters rep comes to my local COGOP and teaches tithing... "Sorry, but you don't have enough cash on hand to get into heaven"? Or maybe, "too bad for you!! Your bleak, cursed situation is only going to get worse until you can pay off your bill!" Sounds like a Central/South American Catholic priest or the local shylock to me!
I have not suggested that God is an idiot. Rather that he is a gracious loving Father who has commanded us not to place stumbling blocks before His children.
How can someone be both blessed and cursed by God at the same time? My Bible teaches that a double minded man is unstable in all his ways.

If we are to have "honest discussion", we can't leave out the difficult questions! Okay everybody, let's imagine a world where everyone has all the money they could possible want, should we give 10% to God? That sir would be just plain dishonest.

[lance82]

Scooter wrote, "Just for kicks I'd love to see the year end totals of chariable giving of a basic tither verses a basic gracer."

Response: That speaks to my point. We aren't giving to impress or pay off God by our total. It's all His anyway. Bill Gates and Oprah can give it all away, but it won't replace their need for grace.

My family also strives to exceed and go beyond a 10% tithe. Not to hit a specific number, but to fulfill needs that we see waiting to be met. My point is NOT that I don't believe in giving; it IS that I believe in cheerful giving as led by His Spirit and directed in the NT, not the letter of a law. Sure 10% is a good marker to strive for, but too many people stop there because they think they have done what is required. So then we start to find the things I mentioned before(insurance, etc) to tax to get more from them. Sounds like the very ones that Christ tossed out of the temple to me!!
What if we called on the people to meet needs, instead of tithing? Don't you think God knows what the needs are and is able to motivate His people to get them covered?

Just for kicks I'd love to see the year end total of people that are going to make it to Heaven by keeping the Law vs. those that will be saved by Grace?

[paul]

Scooter wrote, "Just for kicks I'd love to see the year end totals of chariable giving of a basic tither verses a basic gracer."

Response: That speaks to my point. We aren't giving to impress or pay off God by our total. It's all His anyway. Bill Gates and Oprah can give it all away, but it won't replace their need for grace.

My family also strives to exceed and go beyond a 10% tithe. Not to hit a specific number, but to fulfill needs that we see waiting to be met. My point is NOT that I don't believe in giving; it IS that I believe in cheerful giving as led by His Spirit and directed in the NT, not the letter of a law. Sure 10% is a good marker to strive for, but too many people stop there because they think they have done what is required. So then we start to find the things I mentioned before(insurance, etc) to tax to get more from them. Sounds like the very ones that Christ tossed out of the temple to me!!
What if we called on the people to meet needs, instead of tithing? Don't you think God knows what the needs are and is able to motivate His people to get them covered?

Just for kicks I'd love to see the year end total of people that are going to make it to Heaven by keeping the Law vs. those that will be saved by Grace?

For me, your argument is the very argument that enslaves the people and keeps them in their state of desperation. they are to poor, to many circumstances....but you don't know what they have to payout.. I don't, but God does. god tells us that he gives seed to the sower. God gives, how that comes can vary in many ways.

I work and minister in third world countries, their poverty and lack of necessities is mind boggeling. I engouraged them to tithe...I am not overbearing but I know that if they give God can and will work through that gift.

When I began to work in one country 12 years ago. The pastors told me they could not tithe, they were assured that God understood that they were to poor. Over the next several years they began to give and eventually statred tithing regularly. I watched these pastors and members go from not having any!!!!!! transportation except their two feet to having horses, bikes, motorcycles, cars and now many have vans for their ministries. I watch them as they are being blessed and are now sowing into other ministries, from having everything handed to them because they are so poor to becoming self sufficient.

Their standard of living is still far less than ours, but if you go and tell them they are to poor and can't afford to tithe, they would tell you they can't afford NOT to tithe.

[lance82]

Paul, I am talking about yoking people with tithing the things I mentioned above more than just on income. God said that he would bless a cheerful giver... not a tither. I'm not suggesting that people not give and give sacrificially. I say that they must. What I am against is the preaching of tithing or be cursed or anything else as Christ's doctrine when it is not.

Have you taught them that not tithing will get them cursed?
Have you taught it as a requirement for salvation?
Have you told these same people that they must make up for the tithes they have missed? If not, why?

[Pastor Bill]

If tithing is being taught as a requirement for salvation, or that they will earn blessings from God by it, then yes you are correct, THAT is wrong, but as an OT rule that makes a good standard we can use to teach ourselves to be cheerful givers, then it is appropriate and in order.

To preach that tithing is not appropriate is just as wrong, because it takes away the OT standards that God uses to bring us to a fuller understanding in Grace.

We are to be cheerful givers, but a person who has no frame of reference to know what that means may cheerfully give a quarter every week out of their $100,000 a year income and be very cheerful about it, You are correct if we are burdening people the point of tithing is missed, it's to be done cheerfully in love, not as a requirement, but the OT requirement is a solid measuring stick to learn from as grace takes us beyond that.

[dawgs10]

the prophet required the widow to give the last of her meal. what was the outcome? you cant out give God and she was blessed. those that say i cant afford to tithe and give have no idea what that means.

[Full Quiver]

No one has suggested that anyone can out give God.

Pastor Bill, by using Malachi's language on tithing as the model then one must conclude that those that tithe are blessed above those that are. I & everyone else can name folks that don't tithe that are far better off financially than those that do.

[lance82]

the prophet required the widow to give the last of her meal. what was the outcome? you cant out give God and she was blessed. those that say i cant afford to tithe and give have no idea what that means.

Truly, no one can out give God. The widow was required to give all because the prophet already knew what the Lord was going to do. The Lord promised to bless a cheerful giver, and he does; regardless of the % they give, whether it be 1% or 100%. He is no respecter of persons. He judges the content of the heart. To base your argument for tithing on scriptures where someone was required to give all leaves you about 90% short of the requirement. We are called to give all every day. Do we always do it? No. But the goal is there to be like Christ.

Earlier you said that tithing was a NT teaching because "Jesus said a tenth of your income is good. so we should follow that". Using that argument we should sell all we have and give it to the poor because Jesus told the rich young ruler to do so. We err severely when we take scriptures out of context and hang them around people's necks when there is no true basis for it in light of NT grace.

[dawgs10]

the prophet required the widow to give the last of her meal. what was the outcome? you cant out give God and she was blessed. those that say i cant afford to tithe and give have no idea what that means.

Truly, no one can out give God. The widow was required to give all because the prophet already knew what the Lord was going to do. The Lord promised to bless a cheerful giver, and he does; regardless of the % they give, whether it be 1% or 100%. He is no respecter of persons. He judges the content of the heart. To base your argument for tithing on scriptures where someone was required to give all leaves you about 90% short of the requirement. We are called to give all every day. Do we always do it? No. But the goal is there to be like Christ.

Earlier you said that tithing was a NT teaching because "Jesus said a tenth of your income is good. so we should follow that". Using that argument we should sell all we have and give it to the poor because Jesus told the rich young ruler to do so. We err severely when we take scriptures out of context and hang them around people's necks when there is no true basis for it in light of NT grace.

not true, Jesus knows your heart. he knew the rich young rulers heart and he knew that he would never live up to it. 10% tithe, 90% offering. give 100% if you like. you cant out give him.

[lance82]

If tithing is being taught as a requirement for salvation, or that they will earn blessings from God by it, then yes you are correct, THAT is wrong, but as an OT rule that makes a good standard we can use to teach ourselves to be cheerful givers, then it is appropriate and in order.

To preach that tithing is not appropriate is just as wrong, because it takes away the OT standards that God uses to bring us to a fuller understanding in Grace.

We are to be cheerful givers, but a person who has no frame of reference to know what that means may cheerfully give a quarter every week out of their $100,000 a year income and be very cheerful about it, You are correct if we are burdening people the point of tithing is missed, it's to be done cheerfully in love, not as a requirement, but the OT requirement is a solid measuring stick to learn from as grace takes us beyond that.

Brother, I agree with the heart of what you are saying. But we need to be mindful of teaching what the Bible teaches as NT requirements for the believer. 10% can and maybe should be taught as a "standard", but it is not the rule as you state for salvation. Why not teach that 20% is a good standard?

You suggest that a believer would be "very cheerful" about giving $.25 a week. You sell the Holy Spirit very short here. I do not believe that a true believer would be happy doing so. The problem that this same person wouldn't tithe cheerfully either so their tithe would not be pleasing to the Lord either. Their money might pay the bills, but the heart of the person wouldn't be right or maturing in the Lord if they are not getting the "cheerful" part right.

[scooter]

Scooter, "Perverted prism", "imagine"; what world have you been living in? It is only perverse in the sense that people ARE in these circumstances and we ARE placing these weights around their necks by teaching tithing as a "no room for less" doctrine when neither Christ, Peter, Paul, or any other Apostle did. I have not dreamt up these scenarios. I personally know people in these situations. Should we suggest that a tithe is not required from them, but is from those who can afford it? What is legit for one is legit for all. What should my answer be to any of these people when the headquarters rep comes to my local COGOP and teaches tithing... "Sorry, but you don't have enough cash on hand to get into heaven"? Or maybe, "too bad for you!! Your bleak, cursed situation is only going to get worse until you can pay off your bill!" Sounds like a Central/South American Catholic priest or the local shylock to me!
I have not suggested that God is an idiot. Rather that he is a gracious loving Father who has commanded us not to place stumbling blocks before His children.
How can someone be both blessed and cursed by God at the same time? My Bible teaches that a double minded man is unstable in all his ways.

If we are to have "honest discussion", we can't leave out the difficult questions! Okay everybody, let's imagine a world where everyone has all the money they could possible want, should we give 10% to God? That sir would be just plain dishonest.

Response: I suppose I have never looked at it like an OT law to be enforced with cruel task masters.

I have heard people, even in the CoGop, teach tithing in such a way that you knew they were just trying to find more.

I can remember feeling like crawling underneath my seat and being embarrassed to even be a part of what was going on when our church officials were having a dog and pony show attempting to get people to tithe after they died!

Tithing is not an OT law to be followed with cruel intent but rather a simple tried and true Biblical way of systematically honoring God with one's finances.

If a person in my care had a $100,000.00 medical bill paid off for them I would say PTL and pass the butter, not you know you owe God $10,000.00. To me that is ridiculous. If I am at zero and I end up with zero but I'm healthy instead of sick then the increase is my health.

I can see why that taught in such a fashion tithing would be thought of as you do. I only speak from what I know and you the same.

BTW do we get some kind of rebate when our kid with the scholarship leaves our home?

My bottom line is there are blessings that are to people who do certain things. Every believer does not benefit from every promise. That does not equal double minded but simply a lack of knowledge.

Let me rewrite the Bible to say what you all are advocating and perhaps the parody will help.

"Give or don't give and it will be given back the same."

It is not me who has made this a "salvation" issue so running to that end doesn't help the discussion only presents false implications.

[lance82]

the prophet required the widow to give the last of her meal. what was the outcome? you cant out give God and she was blessed. those that say i cant afford to tithe and give have no idea what that means.

Truly, no one can out give God. The widow was required to give all because the prophet already knew what the Lord was going to do. The Lord promised to bless a cheerful giver, and he does; regardless of the % they give, whether it be 1% or 100%. He is no respecter of persons. He judges the content of the heart. To base your argument for tithing on scriptures where someone was required to give all leaves you about 90% short of the requirement. We are called to give all every day. Do we always do it? No. But the goal is there to be like Christ.

Earlier you said that tithing was a NT teaching because "Jesus said a tenth of your income is good. so we should follow that". Using that argument we should sell all we have and give it to the poor because Jesus told the rich young ruler to do so. We err severely when we take scriptures out of context and hang them around people's necks when there is no true basis for it in light of NT grace.

not true, Jesus knows your heart. he knew the rich young rulers heart and he knew that he would never live up to it. 10% tithe, 90% offering. give 100% if you like. you cant out give him.

Are you implying that Jesus ententionally set the bar too high because he didn't want this person to follow Him? I don't think you are. However, if you apply the same logic to this passage as you do in the earlier quote, then you have to say that Jesus required us all to give all and give it to the poor because he said it to this man.
My point is that your arguments are no good when these scriptures are placed back into context. We have to look at everything leading up to and following the text to get the heart of what is being said. Jesus looks at the heart is the basis for both of these situations. He knew the Jewish leaders were tithing to be seen. He knew the rich ruler wouldn't part with his stuff. They had other Gods before Him. Their hearts were not pure. To suggest that if someone does or does not tithe 10% implies that their heart is right or not is just simply not Biblical! Cheerful giving is the standard. Only God can judge whether or not that is the case.

[lance82]

Response: I suppose I have never looked at it like an OT law to be enforced with cruel task masters.

I have heard people, even in the CoGop, teach tithing in such a way that you knew they were just trying to find more.

I can remember feeling like crawling underneath my seat and being embarrassed to even be a part of what was going on when our church officials were having a dog and pony show attempting to get people to tithe after they died!

Tithing is not an OT law to be followed with cruel intent but rather a simple tried and true Biblical way of systematically honoring God with one's finances.

If a person in my care had a $100,000.00 medical bill paid off for them I would say PTL and pass the butter, not you know you owe God $10,000.00. To me that is ridiculous. If I am at zero and I end up with zero but I'm healthy instead of sick then the increase is my health.

I can see why that taught in such a fashion tithing would be thought of as you do. I only speak from what I know and you the same.

BTW do we get some kind of rebate when our kid with the scholarship leaves our home?

My bottom line is there are blessings that are to people who do certain things. Every believer does not benefit from every promise. That does not equal double minded but simply a lack of knowledge.

Let me rewrite the Bible to say what you all are advocating and perhaps the parody will help.

"Give or don't give and it will be given back the same."

It is not me who has made this a "salvation" issue so running to that end doesn't help the discussion only presents false implications.[/quote]

The fact is that HQ is currently teaching that we need to be tithing on these other "increases".

I agree with you on most of this. However I do not subscribe to the "Give or don't give and it will be given back the same" thinking. I believe that a "cheerful" giver will be blessed...period. Because that is the NT requirement.
I don't think we can have it both ways. Either we have to tithe on increases of everything or we don't. Some people in this world function almost entirely with no currency whatsoever. What are they then to tithe? Honestly when I think about this I am not grasping for straws. What about the man in prison. Should he tithe on the benefits of 3 hots and a cot and everything else that he gets as a "benefit" of his situation. Or those serving in the military?
Do you see where I'm going? I think you agree with the heart of what I am saying. Where do we draw the line? That was/is the problem with the Law.

[scooter]

Do you see where I'm going? I think you agree with the heart of what I am saying. Where do we draw the line? That was/is the problem with the Law.

Response: That's why I said that I would not teach tithing as a law but as a principle.

It its comical how that NT "requirements" aren't laws.

I would say I agree to a degree on other increases. However those would be set by my spirit rather than by an edict of someone looking to make up budget shortfalls at HQ.

[dolfan]

I'm NOT trying to have it both ways ..... just want to make this clear. But, I do take issue with pitting people as "tithers" vs. "gracers". Seems to me like, for those who believe and understand the NT as teaching Jesus' right to require anything and everything (including 10% of our income, etc.), that it is vital to make sure that we don't fall into the Pharasaic trap of doing the one while leaving the other undone. Tithing, tithing-plus-offering, giving abundantly because it is all His anyway, etc., is an act of love. It may not always be with a bubbly lovey feeling in our hearts when that giving seems more difficult at times, but it is done in love because if we love Him, we do what He says. All of us in this discussion, I will presume, want to do what He says. And, if we don't, then tithing alone is not going to change anything.

I like something that C.S. Lewis alluded to in Mere Christianity. He likened the process of maturing in Christ to the way in which, for example, children learn to talk. They start out jabbering. Parents use real words to them and talk to them as if they are adults when they aren't, talk to them as if they can speak when they yet cannot. And, in doing so, adults are 'pretending' that their children are capable of understanding them. Don't all parents find this to be true of themselves? I know I have. Well, lo and behold -- my child has an excellent vocabulary and reads 2 grade levels above her age. She is becoming the thing I have treated her as if she it.

God will accept your first giving, even the somewhat begrudged giving, and treat you as if you are the thing He intends for you to become. In that process, He will enlighten your mind about Himself, and Who He is, and He will guide you to the understanding that you will become like His Son. You will begin to (and none of us will likely fully approach in our lifetimes, but we must go on with it) see and do those things Jesus did, and take on His actual nature, which was to give everything to God, even His own life. Somewhere along the way, sooner or later but inevitably, we wake up to the fact that God uses the resources He gives to us; that He actually expects us to give back to Him what He has given. He's quite capable of taking care of His own. It is more than a percentage and compliance --- this is an issue about becoming the Person God designed and intends you to be.

And, in that light, I can assure you that my paltry tithe and any other penury I may cast in, even in love and hope and obedience and comfort, is so little to nothing that I can't even imagine it. But, it matters to Him because we matter to Him --- immensely. I wish I had more to give, in fact.