Before any selling of existing property and/or building new offices, a study should be done on the benefit and cost of each office.
Ask yourself, How does my church benefit from the International Offices?
What we done a hundred years ago may not be needed in the church of today.
States have been combined into regions and regions have been combined into larger regions. Is it time to combine or eliminate some of the offices?
Is it time to de-centralize our office structure? Does everybody have to live and work out of Cleveland, TN?
The elephant in the Room
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PastorDaniel
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Unless there is more to the report than what is posted on the web site, the ARK study was about Real Estate Holdings. Not the need for a particluar office [position].
I have not seen a person that serves at the IO out in the field for several years.
They used to travel around and promote the work of their department. Now it seems that they are either holed up in Cleveland or asking the membership to come to them in a fancy resort/hotel that is so pricey that most of the people can not afford.
I have not seen a person that serves at the IO out in the field for several years.
They used to travel around and promote the work of their department. Now it seems that they are either holed up in Cleveland or asking the membership to come to them in a fancy resort/hotel that is so pricey that most of the people can not afford.
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Pastor Bill
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I think the problem is demonstrated here very well.
Most people don't understand what the International Offices do, and many choose to assume that means they sit there drawing money from the church.
Can things be slimmed down? I really don't know, I've not been there and been involved with that work, and knowing that to sit back and assume the worst is a poor attitude.
It's easy to sit on the outside not understanding a job and judge the people doing it, it's not accurate, but it's easy, and we need to be careful jumping to that type of attitude, because it is not Christlike.
Now I'm not saying that everything is perfect either, but I think the real concern is there is a lack of trust and understanding, and that in itself should be addressed if possible.
Most people don't understand what the International Offices do, and many choose to assume that means they sit there drawing money from the church.
Can things be slimmed down? I really don't know, I've not been there and been involved with that work, and knowing that to sit back and assume the worst is a poor attitude.
It's easy to sit on the outside not understanding a job and judge the people doing it, it's not accurate, but it's easy, and we need to be careful jumping to that type of attitude, because it is not Christlike.
Now I'm not saying that everything is perfect either, but I think the real concern is there is a lack of trust and understanding, and that in itself should be addressed if possible.
"Why would God allow Hitler his chapter in history? Why would God send a whale to swallow Jonah or turn a woman into a pillar of salt? Surely there were other ways. But I'll leave the particular methods of God to God."
-Spoken by David Abraham, Showdown by Ted Dekker
-Spoken by David Abraham, Showdown by Ted Dekker
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paul
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I oversee an international office based here in Southern California..currently we have over 900 churches around the world, Bible colleges in 8 countries with more than 30 campuses. This does not include the orphanages, safe house and other humanatarian programs we operate.
Most people are clueless as to what it takes to run an organization. Most say they envy me because I get to travel. If only they knew. My hat is off to all those at IO for their dedication and unrelenting service.
Where I may differ is in the arena of the purpose of the IO of any organization. It should not be at the top of the Pyramid but rather at the bottom. Not to dictate ( which I know for cogop has changed greatly over the years) but rather to facililate.
Most people are clueless as to what it takes to run an organization. Most say they envy me because I get to travel. If only they knew. My hat is off to all those at IO for their dedication and unrelenting service.
Where I may differ is in the arena of the purpose of the IO of any organization. It should not be at the top of the Pyramid but rather at the bottom. Not to dictate ( which I know for cogop has changed greatly over the years) but rather to facililate.
You cannot effectively love and minister to others when you are obsessed with protecting
and preserving yourself.
and preserving yourself.
Why do we start saying people have a poor attitude or are not Christlike? When we suggest that a study be made to determine the need and effectiveness of the International Offices.
Does the IO exist to benefit the Local Churches (field) or do the Local Churches exist to benefit the IO?
Trust is a big issue because of the past record, it is not a distant past either because most of those who were involved in the incidents are still at the IO.
Does the IO exist to benefit the Local Churches (field) or do the Local Churches exist to benefit the IO?
Trust is a big issue because of the past record, it is not a distant past either because most of those who were involved in the incidents are still at the IO.
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Pastor Bill
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Car, I was not speaking directly about you personally, but about the attitude of sitting back and judging without knowing, and yes that is a poor attitude and not Christlike in any way, if that hit too close to home, I'm sorry, I'm a preacher and I do step on toes from time to time.
I've also been on the other side of those type of "reviews" and "studies" and they are not always as accurate or helpful as you might think, and can do more to cause distrust if you're not careful.
Internal and External auditing does happen, it's even reported to assemblies, most of the time it's specific to certain areas, because HQ is much larger than the 2 letters may imply, so the people that study the effectiveness of their IT department probably would not be qualified to audit the finance department, etc.
The real issue is lack of trust, and I didn't say that it was completely unjustified, yes there have been problems, and the only reason you know about them is because they HAVE been reported on. In fact we probably hear more about the problems than we do the good work that goes on (that's generally the way it happens everywhere).
I do think the issue of misunderstanding of the mission and scope of HQ as well as the mistrust should be addressed, some good PR to pull things together would be great, but I also know that you're never going to please everyone, and many don't really read or care about what HQ says or does unless it's something they want to disagree with. Sad but true, controversy or problems are looked at much closer than accomplishments and good work.
I've also been on the other side of those type of "reviews" and "studies" and they are not always as accurate or helpful as you might think, and can do more to cause distrust if you're not careful.
Internal and External auditing does happen, it's even reported to assemblies, most of the time it's specific to certain areas, because HQ is much larger than the 2 letters may imply, so the people that study the effectiveness of their IT department probably would not be qualified to audit the finance department, etc.
The real issue is lack of trust, and I didn't say that it was completely unjustified, yes there have been problems, and the only reason you know about them is because they HAVE been reported on. In fact we probably hear more about the problems than we do the good work that goes on (that's generally the way it happens everywhere).
I do think the issue of misunderstanding of the mission and scope of HQ as well as the mistrust should be addressed, some good PR to pull things together would be great, but I also know that you're never going to please everyone, and many don't really read or care about what HQ says or does unless it's something they want to disagree with. Sad but true, controversy or problems are looked at much closer than accomplishments and good work.
"Why would God allow Hitler his chapter in history? Why would God send a whale to swallow Jonah or turn a woman into a pillar of salt? Surely there were other ways. But I'll leave the particular methods of God to God."
-Spoken by David Abraham, Showdown by Ted Dekker
-Spoken by David Abraham, Showdown by Ted Dekker
-
paul
- I can see clearly now!
- Posts: 2749
- Joined: May 17th, 2006, 7:10 pm
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car50 wrote:Why do we start saying people have a poor attitude or are not Christlike? When we suggest that a study be made to determine the need and effectiveness of the International Offices.
If you are to remain an organization the first part of your question is answered. Their is a need and it is vital if you are an organization.
The second part of your question as to its effectiveness, structure etc....is where the thrust of any study should be placed.
In this area I am not shooting from the hips...I know full well what I am talking about.
You cannot effectively love and minister to others when you are obsessed with protecting
and preserving yourself.
and preserving yourself.
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