tithing

[scooter]

But, I do take issue with pitting people as "tithers" vs. "gracers". .

Response: I guess faithful verses unfaithful would have really been an issue.

I'm with you. I never insinuated that we should leave something undone or take some kind of high minded attitude as if tithers are automatically faithful.

In finances I would like to see the bottom line charitable giving of people who believe and practice tithing along with their normal "christian" spirit led way of life verses those who claim grace as a covering and dismiss tithing as simply an OT law.

[paul]

But, I do take issue with pitting people as "tithers" vs. "gracers". .

Response: I guess faithful verses unfaithful would have really been an issue.

I'm with you. I never insinuated that we should leave something undone or take some kind of high minded attitude as if tithers are automatically faithful.

In finances I would like to see the bottom line charitable giving of people who believe and practice tithing along with their normal "christian" spirit led way of life verses those who claim grace as a covering and dismiss tithing as simply an OT law.

Small diversion here but same principle..... many times when I am ministring to ones concerning the needs in the mission fields, I get the reply..well why should we send all thatmoney overseas when their is so many here in America that need Christ, help, etc.....

What I have discovered over the years is that those who do not give to overseas missions generally do not give to any thing at home either. The churches and people that support overseas missions are the ones that do the most at home also. It really comes down to a heart attitude.

I also would be interested in the %

[Pastor Bill]

If tithing is being taught as a requirement for salvation, or that they will earn blessings from God by it, then yes you are correct, THAT is wrong, but as an OT rule that makes a good standard we can use to teach ourselves to be cheerful givers, then it is appropriate and in order.

To preach that tithing is not appropriate is just as wrong, because it takes away the OT standards that God uses to bring us to a fuller understanding in Grace.

We are to be cheerful givers, but a person who has no frame of reference to know what that means may cheerfully give a quarter every week out of their $100,000 a year income and be very cheerful about it, You are correct if we are burdening people the point of tithing is missed, it's to be done cheerfully in love, not as a requirement, but the OT requirement is a solid measuring stick to learn from as grace takes us beyond that.

Brother, I agree with the heart of what you are saying. But we need to be mindful of teaching what the Bible teaches as NT requirements for the believer. 10% can and maybe should be taught as a "standard", but it is not the rule as you state for salvation. Why not teach that 20% is a good standard?

I did NOT say that it was a rule for salvation, in fact I said it was NOT, why not teach 20% as a good standard? because that is more of a burden than most could carry, and again this is NOT about setting a burden on someone's shoulders, but it is a way of measuring ourselves. I used to cheerfully give, and felt I was doing well, till I heard someone preach (again) on tithing, and I realized that I wasn't coming even close, so I began to tithe first, to hold myself accountable, and began to be able to give cheerfully above that, and God has blessed.

Accountability is important, and I'm not talking about laying out rules and burdens on people, but personal accountability, without a standard, it's easy to be lax, or even to be torn down and attacked wanting to do more but struggling and being made feel like less. This was the point of Christ's emphasis on the widow's offering, it's not about the amount, but God knows your ability and your heart, and provided a standard to help us to measure ourselves against not as a rule or burden, but as a support and guide.

You suggest that a believer would be "very cheerful" about giving $.25 a week. You sell the Holy Spirit very short here. I do not believe that a true believer would be happy doing so. The problem that this same person wouldn't tithe cheerfully either so their tithe would not be pleasing to the Lord either. Their money might pay the bills, but the heart of the person wouldn't be right or maturing in the Lord if they are not getting the "cheerful" part right.

I'm not speaking of one trying to do as little as possible, but I am speaking of one who knew no better, or had slowly drifted back with no measure to hold themselves to. I agree the Spirit can lead us, but what about someone with less confidence in themselves that is torn down by not feeling they are doing enough, or one who is soothed by the little they give but not fully obeying either? there are other spiritual forces that can be involved and are seeking to lead people away, we have to be concerned for those that are weaker, just learning, or could be mislead easily.

If you are spiritually strong and can continue to serve without a standard to measure yourself against, great, but not all are there, and frequently many fall from that confidence unaware because they refuse to measure themselves against anything. And that goes for more than just tithing, but all aspects our our Christian walk.

[Pastor Bill]

Are you implying that Jesus ententionally set the bar too high because he didn't want this person to follow Him? I don't think you are. However, if you apply the same logic to this passage as you do in the earlier quote, then you have to say that Jesus required us all to give all and give it to the poor because he said it to this man.

Why does everyone always make this story about the money? Christ offered this man an opportunity to walk away from the life he had, and become one of his disciples, and the man was not willing to step out in faith, that was not an offer made universally, in fact there were those he healed and told to go home and not spread the word.

To use this story to speak universally about tithing doesn't really keep it in context, but seems like trying to push an extreme to force a point.

[Shellie]

I love what C.S. Lewis said in Mere Christianity:

"There ought to be things we would like to do, but cannot, because our charitable expenditures exclude them."

Can ANY of us say that we give to this level?

[Pastor Bill]

But, I do take issue with pitting people as "tithers" vs. "gracers". .

Response: I guess faithful verses unfaithful would have really been an issue.

I'm with you. I never insinuated that we should leave something undone or take some kind of high minded attitude as if tithers are automatically faithful.

In finances I would like to see the bottom line charitable giving of people who believe and practice tithing along with their normal "christian" spirit led way of life verses those who claim grace as a covering and dismiss tithing as simply an OT law.

Small diversion here but same principle..... many times when I am ministring to ones concerning the needs in the mission fields, I get the reply..well why should we send all thatmoney overseas when their is so many here in America that need Christ, help, etc.....

What I have discovered over the years is that those who do not give to overseas missions generally do not give to any thing at home either. The churches and people that support overseas missions are the ones that do the most at home also. It really comes down to a heart attitude.

I also would be interested in the %

It's the same principle, are we looking for excuses to be disobedient, or ways to serve?

I will say I had one member and close friend who made that comment after a concert we had at the church (he is faithful in tithes, and gave in the offerings for missions promoted by the concert, as well as was one of the major workers in helping with the set up and behind the scenes work of putting it on) His reaction wasn't to NOT give, but it stirred something within him to start a ministry locally to try to provide to those in need in our area. His family is struggling financially, and they are putting more than they really have to spare into the ministry, but God is providing for them.

THIS is the attitude that should come from the grace we have received, tithe, yeah sure, but what else beyond that can I do? (and not just financially, but in all aspects of our lives) Rather than kick against the standards, we need to seek to excel above the basics. This goes along with Paul's writings in I Corinthians that many twist to use against speaking in tongues, he encouraged to go beyond and seek to excel to greater things in ministry, that should always be our goal, never to look for the minimums.

[Full Quiver]

I haven't read where anyone is suggesting disobedience BUT I am reading where ministers are happily preaching a mandated tithe in accordance with a failed religion, Judaism. Trifling with the Word is disobedience though. What I am reading is people are afraid that without a mandated tithe then they will not receive their incomes and mission fields won't be supplied.

a question about mission fields:
Do overseas Christians tithe and if so where does that money go? Are they told over and over that they must tithe? If they have a dime to their name do the preachers really expect a penny from them?

Shellie, that quote is awesome and it happened in the OT when Moses told the people what was needed to construct the tabernacle. TOO MUCH was given and he had to tell them to stop.
So yes it's impossible to out give God BUT it's also impossible to out give God's people when you properly present the need.

One could show you records that they "tithe" but may not be able to prove that they actually "tithed" because usually only their paycheck is considered their income. That person would find it hard to prove that they gave that "tithe" cheerfully and not begrudgingly. God knows of course but HE knows all of our hearts and intentions and HE is the judge.

[lance82]

If tithing is being taught as a requirement for salvation, or that they will earn blessings from God by it, then yes you are correct, THAT is wrong, but as an OT rule that makes a good standard we can use to teach ourselves to be cheerful givers, then it is appropriate and in order.

To preach that tithing is not appropriate is just as wrong, because it takes away the OT standards that God uses to bring us to a fuller understanding in Grace.

We are to be cheerful givers, but a person who has no frame of reference to know what that means may cheerfully give a quarter every week out of their $100,000 a year income and be very cheerful about it, You are correct if we are burdening people the point of tithing is missed, it's to be done cheerfully in love, not as a requirement, but the OT requirement is a solid measuring stick to learn from as grace takes us beyond that.

Brother, I agree with the heart of what you are saying. But we need to be mindful of teaching what the Bible teaches as NT requirements for the believer. 10% can and maybe should be taught as a "standard", but it is not the rule as you state for salvation. Why not teach that 20% is a good standard?

I did NOT say that it was a rule for salvation, in fact I said it was NOT, why not teach 20% as a good standard? because that is more of a burden than most could carry, and again this is NOT about setting a burden on someone's shoulders, but it is a way of measuring ourselves. I used to cheerfully give, and felt I was doing well, till I heard someone preach (again) on tithing, and I realized that I wasn't coming even close, so I began to tithe first, to hold myself accountable, and began to be able to give cheerfully above that, and God has blessed.

Accountability is important, and I'm not talking about laying out rules and burdens on people, but personal accountability, without a standard, it's easy to be lax, or even to be torn down and attacked wanting to do more but struggling and being made feel like less. This was the point of Christ's emphasis on the widow's offering, it's not about the amount, but God knows your ability and your heart, and provided a standard to help us to measure ourselves against not as a rule or burden, but as a support and guide.

You suggest that a believer would be "very cheerful" about giving $.25 a week. You sell the Holy Spirit very short here. I do not believe that a true believer would be happy doing so. The problem that this same person wouldn't tithe cheerfully either so their tithe would not be pleasing to the Lord either. Their money might pay the bills, but the heart of the person wouldn't be right or maturing in the Lord if they are not getting the "cheerful" part right.

I'm not speaking of one trying to do as little as possible, but I am speaking of one who knew no better, or had slowly drifted back with no measure to hold themselves to. I agree the Spirit can lead us, but what about someone with less confidence in themselves that is torn down by not feeling they are doing enough, or one who is soothed by the little they give but not fully obeying either? there are other spiritual forces that can be involved and are seeking to lead people away, we have to be concerned for those that are weaker, just learning, or could be mislead easily.

If you are spiritually strong and can continue to serve without a standard to measure yourself against, great, but not all are there, and frequently many fall from that confidence unaware because they refuse to measure themselves against anything. And that goes for more than just tithing, but all aspects our our Christian walk.

Sorry that I unintentionally mis-quoted you there. My intention was to place a comma before "as you state". Meaning that I was in agreement with you that it was not a condition for salvation.

I agree that we need to challenge ourselves in all areas. The Apostle Paul implored the people to prepare an offering. I just increasingly find the teaching of a mandatory 10% tithe as contrary to what the Apostles were trying to impart to the Churches. We all see what happens when pastors ask for special offerings. The figures are often staggeringly high. That is the Spirit at work(and proof that many are hitting the 10% and holding on to the rest ). I'm just saying that we need to tell folks to start with some set % in their budgeting. Do that and see what God will do to help you increase that. Sacrifical giving is rarely practiced today.

It is easy to assume that 20% is too burdensome to most, but allot of people would be strapped to do 5% when they come into the church. Allot of people that don't know the Lord(and allot that do also) have every dollar they have coming in budgeted to go somewhere. I know that you don't feel this way, but how can pastors, or HQ, expect these folks to cough up 10% or suddenly be cursed when they have been living the good life financially up to now while living in sin ? Soooo contrary to the Gospel message of Good News and Hope!!

[lance82]

Pastor Bill wrote:
"THIS is the attitude that should come from the grace we have received, tithe, yeah sure, but what else beyond that can I do? (and not just financially, but in all aspects of our lives) Rather than kick against the standards, we need to seek to excel above the basics. This goes along with Paul's writings in I Corinthians that many twist to use against speaking in tongues, he encouraged to go beyond and seek to excel to greater things in ministry, that should always be our goal, never to look for the minimums."

Response: Amen brother!! Shame on us when we try to slide through with less than our best!

[lance82]

Are you implying that Jesus ententionally set the bar too high because he didn't want this person to follow Him? I don't think you are. However, if you apply the same logic to this passage as you do in the earlier quote, then you have to say that Jesus required us all to give all and give it to the poor because he said it to this man.

Why does everyone always make this story about the money? Christ offered this man an opportunity to walk away from the life he had, and become one of his disciples, and the man was not willing to step out in faith, that was not an offer made universally, in fact there were those he healed and told to go home and not spread the word.

To use this story to speak universally about tithing doesn't really keep it in context, but seems like trying to push an extreme to force a point.

Exactly my point... when using scriptures to make a specific point(as I did here on purpose to counter dawgs10 using Christ's response to the Religious leaders tithing to make his point) without including the whole context of what is going on we make a huge mess of what the Spirit was saying in the first place! We know that Jesus was rebuking them for their hard hearts when we keep it in context; but dawgs10 uses it to imply that Jesus was instructing the NT Church to tithe.

[scooter]

I haven't read where anyone is suggesting disobedience BUT I am reading where ministers are happily preaching a mandated tithe in accordance with a failed religion, Judaism. Trifling with the Word is disobedience though. What I am reading is people are afraid that without a mandated tithe then they will not receive their incomes and mission fields won't be supplied.

a question about mission fields:
Do overseas Christians tithe and if so where does that money go? Are they told over and over that they must tithe? If they have a dime to their name do the preachers really expect a penny from them?

Shellie, that quote is awesome and it happened in the OT when Moses told the people what was needed to construct the tabernacle. TOO MUCH was given and he had to tell them to stop.
So yes it's impossible to out give God BUT it's also impossible to out give God's people when you properly present the need.

One could show you records that they "tithe" but may not be able to prove that they actually "tithed" because usually only their paycheck is considered their income. That person would find it hard to prove that they gave that "tithe" cheerfully and not begrudgingly. God knows of course but HE knows all of our hearts and intentions and HE is the judge.

Response: No fear here brother I work and pastor.lol

We certainly don't throw out "the Lord is my shepherd" because it originates with a failed religion.

You put out a false notion. Paul simply suggested that the same people who don't tithe won't give to missions either, the way I read it, but then again I'm not trying to wiggle past anything.

I teach tithing because I have been blessed by practicing the principle. I know the wicked prosper, too. Go figure.

I see it as an excellent way to systematically honor God proportionately and as a Biblical starting block of financial faithfulness.

[dawgs10]

Are you implying that Jesus ententionally set the bar too high because he didn't want this person to follow Him? I don't think you are. However, if you apply the same logic to this passage as you do in the earlier quote, then you have to say that Jesus required us all to give all and give it to the poor because he said it to this man.

Why does everyone always make this story about the money? Christ offered this man an opportunity to walk away from the life he had, and become one of his disciples, and the man was not willing to step out in faith, that was not an offer made universally, in fact there were those he healed and told to go home and not spread the word.

To use this story to speak universally about tithing doesn't really keep it in context, but seems like trying to push an extreme to force a point.

Exactly my point... when using scriptures to make a specific point(as I did here on purpose to counter dawgs10 using Christ's response to the Religious leaders tithing to make his point) without including the whole context of what is going on we make a huge mess of what the Spirit was saying in the first place! We know that Jesus was rebuking them for their hard hearts when we keep it in context; but dawgs10 uses it to imply that Jesus was instructing the NT Church to tithe.

i was not implying anything. Jesus said the act of tithing was right and good. but the intentions of the religious leaders was to be seen or to be religious. the fact is the act of tithing according to Jesus is right and or good.

[Pastor Bill]

lance, I think the problem is that most here you are arguing with don't teach anything as "mandatory" in the sense you are implying. We do teach that mature Christians should consider the tithe as a standard starting places in the budget to set aside for God, but we don't force this as a burden on anyone, kick people out of church for not tithing, or scare them with a curse for not being faithful, I've seen that attitude (and not just in tithing) and that's not the heart of Christ, nor is it one that is common among most that I know on this board.

The concern is that many "throw the baby out with the bathwater" in that they stop teaching people any standard of giving, and focus only on the "cheerfulness" part. This frequently comes from those that are looking to avoid the obedience.

[scooter]

lance, I think the problem is that most here you are arguing with don't teach anything as "mandatory" in the sense you are implying. We do teach that mature Christians should consider the tithe as a standard starting places in the budget to set aside for God, but we don't force this as a burden on anyone, kick people out of church for not tithing, or scare them with a curse for not being faithful, I've seen that attitude (and not just in tithing) and that's not the heart of Christ, nor is it one that is common among most that I know on this board.

The concern is that many "throw the baby out with the bathwater" in that they stop teaching people any standard of giving, and focus only on the "cheerfulness" part. This frequently comes from those that are looking to avoid the obedience.

Response: That's pretty close. Also we must factor in that we, as a people, if you are talking about the CoGop, have established tithing as our way of keeping our leadership structure.

Is there any room for a church to establish the way it wants to support its own structure?

[lance82]

lance, I think the problem is that most here you are arguing with don't teach anything as "mandatory" in the sense you are implying. We do teach that mature Christians should consider the tithe as a standard starting places in the budget to set aside for God, but we don't force this as a burden on anyone, kick people out of church for not tithing, or scare them with a curse for not being faithful, I've seen that attitude (and not just in tithing) and that's not the heart of Christ, nor is it one that is common among most that I know on this board.

The concern is that many "throw the baby out with the bathwater" in that they stop teaching people any standard of giving, and focus only on the "cheerfulness" part. This frequently comes from those that are looking to avoid the obedience.

This may be true and I'm not trying to imply that anyone is doing something they are not. The fact is that the leadership of this Church is teaching it this way and getting more and more legalistic about it. AND not even open for discussion. Their answers are.... "you aren't praying enough", "you are being deceived", "if it is anti-tithe, I am against it", "you are trying to deceive others", "you need to study more", "pray that God will open your eyes", "I've read stuff like that and am against it", etc. We must have open dialogue on this with HQ.

We have been taught for so long that tithing is the way, that we believe that there must be some standard taught. Where does the NT even say that? I find sacrifical giving, willing giving, and cheerful giving taught. That is the standard for each of us to work out. I think people fear that churches will close and even worse if we change the teaching. What if there is a better way? What if the money being spent to keep the doors of empty, dead churches open was spent to feed/clothe/house the poor? ...or to evangelize the world?