tithing

[dawgs10]

Some people think not going to the movies is a sign of spiritual maturity. I happen to think that because I can go to the movie and not sin then i am more mature than those that just abstain for fear they will sin.


Anyhow,

Paul did not receive a vision about food, peter did and the law was not changed then. Jesus torn the vail in two. The law was changed when HE said it is finished. He NAILED it to the cross. Whether you guys realize it or not you practice a form of the Pharisees religion. You keep what you want to and don't the others in order to control others and pretend to be more spiritually mature and that says a lot coming from a once hard core Pharisee like myself.

No offense meant but please cast off all religion and just love Jesus for whom HE is, our Saviour!

if Christ approved it its not religion.

[MacUser]

mack, as a christian you are free. free to do the right thing.

Indeed but by Faith and no fear/condemnation exists in PERFECT LOVE. Wowowow- He is SO GOOD... The only way to please God is by Faith ( Heb 11:6 )

Galations 3:3-4 is also blazingly clear.

3. Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort? 4. Have you suffered so much for nothing—if it really was for nothing?

Did Christ come so you could keep the law better? No brother He did not. Why do we trust in our religious rules and not trust in the Spirit to deliver?
Verse 4 above even asks.. Have you suffered for NOTHING via human works/pain/religious to comply with the law - when you have FREE acceptance thru Jesus? Don't use witchcraft to manipulate others! You freely give out of Faith ( The PROMISE!! )... out of no law or fear of punishment because Jesus took all the punishment.

Paul is also clear that if you KEEP ANY of the Law.. you must keep it all. Why do we ignore mondo pink elephant in the living room? LOL.

Honoring the Law or any part of it... instead of the FREEDOM of Christ is like kissing an old photograph of my lovely wife.. when She is standing right next to me!!! I dishonor my wife when She is right next to me with open arms.

I pray Revelation on you all. You are dangerously free...

1 John 4:17 (ESV)
17. By this is love perfected with us, so that we may have confidence for the day of judgment, because as he is so also are we in this world.

It's not about US. It's about Jesus.
Behold the LAMB!!!!

[lance82]

Actually brother there is a difference, the dietary laws were changed with Paul's vision, tithing was supported by Christ as a good thing, I agree with you it should not be pushed in the manner you are describing, but I also have not seen that done to the point that you are describing from HQ either.

A challenge you brother... contact HQ with any questions about tithing and... number one, see if you get a reply... number two, if you do get an answer, be prepared for the answers I quoted in the earlier post. Then please share the responses here. I find it so sad that we continue to hide behind traditions, without seeking for true revelation, as a Body of believers.

The dietary laws never were for the gentiles. Rather for Jews alone. The Apostles made restrictions to keep the newly converted gentile believers from sliding back into their idolatry ways.

Another concern for me is that people attempt to keep laws, but only keep the part that is comfortable for them. The tithes required in the OT were various and never included cash income that I can find. Even when Jesus addressed the Parisees, He was referring to only the foods tithe as they were required by the Law of Moses. The food tithe ended up being closer to 23 % annually than just the 10% we teach today. I cannot find anywhere where people gaining their income from anything other than the production of food are required to tithe anything; and those producing foods were required to tithe the food, not money, or pay an added penalty for doing so.

Why aren't we teaching this?

[lance82]

dawgs10 wrote, "and yet you still cant remove the simple fact that he said it was good and right if you have the right intentions. you cant make it go away."

Response: You are right, I can't make it go away. Jesus did. He paid the price. The veil was rent. We were released from the curse. See my earlier post regarding tithing the OT way. We entered into an "honest" discussion here. Please stop trying to drive one point that doesn't fit in context with this discussion. Study what the Bible says and see if you can find any other link, connection, truth to this teaching. Show me Biblical examples of NT or OT requirements for tithing on ones income aside from the tithing of food.

Good and right intentions lead us to do what we are led to do by the Spirit. When we require people to PAY a tithe or be cursed it is nothing short of a religious tax. If the Spirit leads YOU to tithe, do so. However it is not your place to require it of others. Only the Spirit has that right.

To me Acts chapter 15 sums all of this up. We are not to keep the Law of Moses as a requirement for salvation.

[dawgs10]

dawgs10 wrote, "and yet you still cant remove the simple fact that he said it was good and right if you have the right intentions. you cant make it go away."

Response: You are right, I can't make it go away. Jesus did. He paid the price. The veil was rent. We were released from the curse. See my earlier post regarding tithing the OT way. We entered into an "honest" discussion here. Please stop trying to drive one point that doesn't fit in context with this discussion. Study what the Bible says and see if you can find any other link, connection, truth to this teaching. Show me Biblical examples of NT or OT requirements for tithing on ones income aside from the tithing of food.

Good and right intentions lead us to do what we are led to do by the Spirit. When we require people to PAY a tithe or be cursed it is nothing short of a religious tax. If the Spirit leads YOU to tithe, do so. However it is not your place to require it of others. Only the Spirit has that right.

To me Acts chapter 15 sums all of this up. We are not to keep the Law of Moses as a requirement for salvation.

i am taking it in the context its written and its fact. he said tithing is right and or good. so its the right thing to do. thats what the exchange is about. is tithing NT. yes it is. with the right intentions it is. i am free to tithe. i am free to live right. thats grace.

[dawgs10]

it is my place to share the word of God with others. when asked should i tithe the answer is and always will be, Jesus said it is the right thing to do. take it or leave it.

[Pastor Bill]

Some people think not going to the movies is a sign of spiritual maturity. I happen to think that because I can go to the movie and not sin then i am more mature than those that just abstain for fear they will sin.


Anyhow,

Paul did not receive a vision about food, peter did and the law was not changed then. Jesus torn the vail in two. The law was changed when HE said it is finished. He NAILED it to the cross. Whether you guys realize it or not you practice a form of the Pharisees religion. You keep what you want to and don't the others in order to control others and pretend to be more spiritually mature and that says a lot coming from a once hard core Pharisee like myself.

No offense meant but please cast off all religion and just love Jesus for whom HE is, our Saviour!

Sorry, I mistyped that, I'm awful with names, but you knew the point I was making, and yes his vision did change things, and both his and Paul's teachings reflect many of those changes.

It may not be a huge issue, and I know the deeper issue was the acceptance of the gentiles, but there is scriptural acknowledgment of a change there, whereas there is not with tithes.

Again paying tithes isn't going to get you into heaven, nor is not paying going to send you to hell, but it is a principle given to us to guide our actions and is a good thing, to paint it as wrong or bad is really stretching things.

[Pastor Bill]

Actually Lance, I know the official answer from HQ, they have a nice DVD series on financial management including one on tithing, I now only have watched it, watched it with the church where I used to pastor and discussed it as well as own it.

It was taught that tithing is an act of obedience, and a blessing, and that it's more about out attitude, we should be looking for opportunities to serve God rather than looking for ways to cut back on what we give.

It was not put out as a requirement for salvation or church membership, but a standard of financial management and planning.

[dawgs10]

[quote="Pastor Bill"]Actually Lance, I know the official answer from HQ, they have a nice DVD series on financial management including one on tithing, I now only have watched it, watched it with the church where I used to pastor and discussed it as well as own it.

It was taught that tithing is an act of obedience, and a blessing, and that it's more about out attitude, we should be looking for opportunities to serve God rather than looking for ways to cut back on what we give.

It was not put out as a requirement for salvation or church membership, but a standard of financial management and planning.[/quo

right on. act of obedience and a blessing and is about attitude. wanting to serve rather than looking for loop holes to justify the lack of.

[lance82]

it is my place to share the word of God with others. when asked should i tithe the answer is and always will be, Jesus said it is the right thing to do. take it or leave it.

Response: Do you also observe Matthew 23:2-3?
2"The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat. 3So you must obey them and do everything they tell you.”
Or… Matthew 18:15-17?
15"If your brother sins against you,[a] go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. 16But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that 'every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.'[b] 17If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

Why or why not?

[Pastor Bill]

Not sure of the translation you are using there, but yes I am familiar with those verses, and yes I do follow them, we are to obey those God sets over us in the Lord, and we are to work to restore those that fall into sin.

[MacUser]

we should be looking for opportunities to serve God rather than looking for ways to cut back on what we give.

With all love/respect brother and not responding to anything other than this statement on my reply here. Nobody is cutting back on anything by understanding Truth. Truth trumps indoctrination from every facet. Jesus said the Truth will set you FREE. Our first goal should be understanding and teaching Truth as it relates to the Covenant we are under. We apparently have a ripe opportunity for such teaching today.

It was not put out as a requirement for salvation or church membership, but a standard of financial management and planning.

Wonderful.. if this is the model..... but has it been really taught this way? Seriously? Or is it been imposed that God will Bless You ( + ) if you do and you not Bless You ( - ) if you don't? I can recall countless times.

Why do we teach receiving and trusting the Spirit for our Salvation and yet return to religious dead laws when it relates to finances? Why can we not trust the Spirit also in this matter? All my above scripture references still apply. They stands without challenge.

I submit let us Show the LOVE of Christ, Teach people whom they are under the New Covenant and FREE THEM. Then trust the Spirit to bring the increase. Anything else to manipulate / pressure / for false blessings could be considered DEAD works.

Jeremiah 31:31-34

31 "Behold, the days are coming, declares the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, 32 not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant that they broke, though I was their husband, declares the LORD. 33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the LORD: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

It's all about Him. Behold the Lamb!

[dawgs10]

it is my place to share the word of God with others. when asked should i tithe the answer is and always will be, Jesus said it is the right thing to do. take it or leave it.

Response: Do you also observe Matthew 23:2-3?
2"The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat. 3So you must obey them and do everything they tell you.”
Or… Matthew 18:15-17?
15"If your brother sins against you,[a] go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. 16But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that 'every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.'[b] 17If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

Why or why not?

um yes., because the Bible tells us to. the fact is Jesus put his stamp of approval on somethings that were under law. so i will side with Jesus on this one.

[lance82]

Actually Lance, I know the official answer from HQ, they have a nice DVD series on financial management including one on tithing, I now only have watched it, watched it with the church where I used to pastor and discussed it as well as own it.

It was taught that tithing is an act of obedience, and a blessing, and that it's more about out attitude, we should be looking for opportunities to serve God rather than looking for ways to cut back on what we give.

It was not put out as a requirement for salvation or church membership, but a standard of financial management and planning.

An act of obedience to what? HQ or God. Again... it is preached and taught that a curse is coming if not done, and that simply does not line up with any scripture that I can find. Giving is a blessing. Giving freely and joyfully, whether it be 1% or 100% as led by the Spirit. Why do we get legalistice about money and not time managemant, prayer time, personal evangelism...?

I have never suggested that anyone look for ways to cut back. Rather that we give sacrificailly. Personally, I am always looking at how I can give, do, and be more for Christ than I have been in the past; whether it be monetarily, physically, relationally, spiritually, or what have you. Always a success? No, but still trying.

[lance82]

dawgs10 wrote, :"um yes., because the Bible tells us to. the fact is Jesus put his stamp of approval on somethings that were under law. so i will side with Jesus on this one."

Response: Seriously... you keep all of the laws of Moses? Do you even realize what they were? Are you even reading what I am asking you?

Yes... please... side with Jesus.