tithing

[scooter]

OOhhhh.. Yes I am.... Seeking the absolute Truth regardless of what sacred cows it runs over. Is Truth only good when it works within your organization or group? Or is truth Truth regardless? Truth trumps indoctrination every single time. Just because it's a good teaching and you are keeping it because you agree that that Law was GOOD... Paul is clear that if you keep any of the law.. you must keep it all. He is clear on not letting anyone bewitch you concerning this. If your Grace teaching is based on a mixture of covenants... it's not TRUTH. I didn't make this up. See my above scripture references. It's absolutely clear. Why do we continue to trust in the written Law when we have the indwelling of the SPIRIT!!

Response: Here's a kicker for you brother, Let's say that the Spirit of God led me to tithe in my lifetime. Let's say that I know that tithes were used in the law and I know that the law of the tithe to the Levite is no longer valid.

Let's say God wrote in my heart and in my mind that I should practice tithing as a basic principle of financial faithfulness. Let's say I do that freely and cheerfully and that I give above that in the same manner.

All your jumping up and down and shouting grace grace isn't going to scratch the surface of what the Spirit of the Lord has spoken to me through the new covenant method.

Who then do you represent?

[scooter]

STOP: NO ONE ADVOCATES TITHING SIMPLY BECAUSE IT WAS A PART OF OT LAW

NO ONE THINKS WE ARE KEEPING A PART OF THE OT LAW


PROCEED

[scooter]

"These things ye ought to have done" applies to every other aspect of the law that the pharisee should have been doing. I understand that Jesus was advocating that not the continuance of tithing. Just for clarification.

[dawgs10]

Dawgs, I'm going to argue with you from your point of view that Jesus was approving the Jewish tithing system and thus applying it to Christians.

Notice that HE specifically pointed out their extremes, their fanaticism, their legalism in that they gave a tenth of their herbs.

My direct question to you, since you so loudly & proudly support this system is, do you tithe on gifts?

do you tithe on any products you grow in your garden (if you have or ever had one)?

Do you pay tithe if someone buys you lunch therefore increasing the money you have in your pocket?

Do you tithe on the earned income child tax credit?

Do you weigh your french fries from McDonald's and if they gave you too many do you pay tithe on that increase?

If you get free generic drugs from your insurance or medicare do you tithe on that increase?

If your insurance pays out more than you paid in in deductibles and premiums do you tithe that increase?

If you ever failed to tithe did you pay the OT interest penalty on that tithe?

And yes I am serious.

If you answer NO to any of these then you do not believe what Jesus told the Pharisees to be a Christian practice.

i tithe on income. the fact is i make no revenue on anyof the things listed such as herbs. income or increase can be defined many different ways. Jesus was saying tithing is good. but if you make it a religious thing such as counting out your herb or weighing you french fries its wrong. and yes i tithe on tax returns. its something i have always done. what is a tithe? it is a tenth of income, revenue or increase. Jesus was saying tithing is good but you have turned it into religion. thats what he was saying. nothing more, nothing less. so yes tithing is approved by Jesus no matter how you want to twist it.

[dawgs10]

Macuser, Don't take this personally, I wasn't speaking specifically about you, but most that push against tithing are doing it seeking a release from giving, not truth.

I know you seek truth, and I'd say you probably give 10% or more, which qualifies as tithing. BUT let's take this from another direction... what was the purpose of the law? Was it God's way of oppressing man prior to Christ? (I know that is what men twisted it into at times) Or was it God's word meant to guide their lives? Now I understand we are to be led by the Spirit, but would His Spirit contradict His word? or would they complement and work together?

I know many who seek to be led only by the spirit, and throw out scripture, doing only what they feel the Spirit leads them to, and they are led astray, because at times they aren't listening quite right or are led astray by their own lusts. God's Word is Truth, and His Spirit is Truth, If we use his Word to guide our lives, allowing the Spirit to lead us the two together work in harmony. I can plan on paying my tithes faithfully because I know that is a guideline God set for me in His word, and be led of his Spirit in how to give as well, it's not a contradiction as some here want to make it out, and it's not a bondage, but it is a way for me to check my own heart and my own spirit to know that I am following.

Have I ever missed paying my tithes, yes, and God's not sending me to hell for it, but I also have been led by the Spirit to plan for that in my budget and in being faithful to that God blesses me, when I am not faithful in that, yes I struggle, not due to a curse, but any unfaithfulness hurts my relationship with God, and that in itself is a struggle.

It's no different than attending church, God isn't going to send me to hell for missing a service, but I lack the blessings of that fellowship, corporate worship, the strength from my brothers and sisters in the Lord, I miss out on the opportunity to minister to someone else, to be there for them in their time of need, etc. Is it a burden? well if you want to look at it that way, then I guess you've got the wrong attitude about it, and you should stop (and yes I have told people when I was their pastor if they felt obligated to do something then to stop, and seek God again for direction).

It's not about the money, it's not about the burden, it's about being faithful to what God has asked of us. Through His Word, and His Spirit. When serving God feels like and obligation, it's time to look into our own hearts and find what is wrong, and where God can lead us to make it right.

if this was facebook i would click the like button.

[MacUser]

OOhhhh.. Yes I am.... Seeking the absolute Truth regardless of what sacred cows it runs over. Is Truth only good when it works within your organization or group? Or is truth Truth regardless? Truth trumps indoctrination every single time. Just because it's a good teaching and you are keeping it because you agree that that Law was GOOD... Paul is clear that if you keep any of the law.. you must keep it all. He is clear on not letting anyone bewitch you concerning this. If your Grace teaching is based on a mixture of covenants... it's not TRUTH. I didn't make this up. See my above scripture references. It's absolutely clear. Why do we continue to trust in the written Law when we have the indwelling of the SPIRIT!!

Response: Here's a kicker for you brother, Let's say that the Spirit of God led me to tithe in my lifetime. Let's say that I know that tithes were used in the law and I know that the law of the tithe to the Levite is no longer valid.

Let's say God wrote in my heart and in my mind that I should practice tithing as a basic principle of financial faithfulness. Let's say I do that freely and cheerfully and that I give above that in the same manner.

All your jumping up and down and shouting grace grace isn't going to scratch the surface of what the Spirit of the Lord has spoken to me through the new covenant method.

Who then do you represent?

LOL.. Wonderful!! Then you are living as a SON. Brother.. You do whatever the Spirit tells you to do. Fantastic.

Yes, yes, yes.. you will give.. but out of FAITH, FAITH, FAITH. Jesus operated this way and so will you! The ONLY way you can please God is by FAITH!!!!

But anything.. and I mean anything done out of obligation / pressure / religious rewards system.. is dead works. On the level with WITCHCRAFT... and I didn't make this up... I'm just relaying what Paul said in exact context with scripture references above.

Release people into Truth understanding of whom they are. Trust in the Spirit - TRUTH - to guide you in your giving. You have nothing to fear .. except religious control.

*Boldly Praising Jesus - My High Priest !!*
Behold the Lamb.

[scooter]

But anything.. and I mean anything done out of obligation / pressure / religious rewards system.. is dead works. On the level with WITCHCRAFT... and I didn't make this up... I'm just relaying what Paul said in exact context with scripture references above.

.

Response: Wonder why he had Timothy circumcised.

[MacUser]

If one is not finacially faithful there are repercussions.

So you don't teach under the Law... Really? Who is going to punish us for not giving tithes? Is this Fear? Perfect love cast out all fear. Brother.. I'm justified and free as it is GOD who justifies. Who is doing the condemning above?

Romans 8

30And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

31What, then, shall we say in response to this? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32 He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all—how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? 33 Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. 34 Who is he that condemns? Christ Jesus, who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us.

It's not about us. It's about HIM.
Behold the Lamb!!

[MacUser]

Response: Wonder why he had Timothy circumcised.

Ouch.. He later repented on this religious *ahem* shortcoming?

1 Corinthians 7:18 (New International Version)
18. Was a man already circumcised when he was called? He should not become uncircumcised. Was a man uncircumcised when he was called? He should not be circumcised.

[scooter]

If one is not finacially faithful there are repercussions.

So you don't teach under the Law... Really? Who is going to punish us for not giving tithes? Is this Fear? Perfect love cast out all fear. Brother.. I'm justified and free as it is GOD who justifies. Who is doing the condemning above?

Romans 8

30And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

31What, then, shall we say in response to this? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32 He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all—how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? 33 Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. 34 Who is he that condemns? Christ Jesus, who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us.

It's not about us. It's about HIM.
Behold the Lamb!!

Response: Wake up brother.

To teach there are no ramifications for the way we live after accepting Christ is simply error.

2Th 3:10 For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat.

IS THIS FEAR? SO PEOPLE WHO DON"T WORK SHOULD BE AFRAID THEY WON"T EAT. How dare Paul.

Is this NT scripture heaping guilt on those who don't work???

This is exactly what I mean by gracer.

The scripture does not say there is no condemnation to those who are in Christ who disobey the Spirit, who err from the truth, who are unfaithful in the aspects of their life.

Like I said Give or don't give, there is a difference and there are repercussions.

[dolfan]

Repercussions. Consequences. Results. In my mind, these are all connected ideas. I can't speak for Scooter, but for myself, I do know that these happen in any area of my life where I am unfaithful, disobedient, ummmm .... knowing to do good and doing it not, etc. There is a written law that I must obey. It is the law that is written in my heart.

In Jeremiah 31, God said that He would make a new covenant and would write the law in the hearts of Israel. The writer of Hebrews repeats this passage in chapter 8, vv. 8-10. In the next chapter, the writer specifies the distinction between the covenants: the old was made valid by the shedding of blood in sacrificial offerings yearly, the new made valid by the shedding of blood of Christ once for all. The writer makes clear that the old covenant and its order are obsolete. BUT, he doesn't dispense with all "law", per se. He ratifies and repeats that there is a new order, and with it a new law. It is not a law of condemnation which is all the old covenant could accomplish, to bring Israel to account for its sins but not to redeem it from sin. It is, instead, a law of salvation: the old order is not returning. The new order is not yet consummated in creation -- as the writer emphasizes, "he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him."

Who are those who are waiting for him? Jesus said "If you love me, obey my commandments." There IS a law. We are under it. Here it is: Love the Lord your God with all your heart and your neighbor as yourself. The character of God as He revealed Himself in the OT, and as completely shown in Christ, is not made obsolete. God showed very much about the kind of Person He is in the OT Law. Jesus fulfilled that partial revelation. Note how He said, "The law says....but I say...". The law didn't go all the way. Jesus does.

We know in part, but we know far more fully than those folks did in ancient Israel. We still need the leading and guiding of God in our partial knowledge of the Complete and Perfect One, Jesus. We still must walk circumspectly, not as fools, but wise, redeeming the time for the days are evil. Who He is and How He is revealed to us in the Bible. None of it is of any private interpretation. My conscience is not my guide. My conscience is informed by the Word and made alive by the Spirit. And, my whole self, all of me, is in the business of being made into the new man that God intends for me to become.

One day, all of the partial things I do will be done away because I will see and know Him fully, as He is; that I am promised. So are we all. One of the partial things I do now because I understand it to be taught to me in Scripture and because I want to submit to His Lordship and be His son and joint-heir, is to give part of what He gives me to the body for its service to Him. It is clearly taught for me to do that. I won't get dogmatic about His "cut". Why? Because, the truth is, that when He does appear and I do get to know and understand fully, all of it will be under Him anyway. To the extent I hold anything back from Him (and I mean anything), then there is more perfecting and completing to do in me.

[MacUser]

To teach there are no ramifications for the way we live after accepting Christ is simply error

This is exactly what I mean by gracer.

Ha Ha.. Oh brother.. I love you... but you try to hard to justify your mixture of covenants and direct teachings of Paul by your single LOUD LINES of boldness *sigh*. It clearly strikes at your religion. I've show scripture only. Truth trumps indoctrination ( and loudness ).

By Grace.. if you mean Romans 5:17. Yes I am guilty of this completely!!

Romans 5:17 (KJV)
17. For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

The SPIRIT will guide you after accepting Christ. Will we mess up? Absolutely.. do we have an advocate with the Father? A HIGH PRIEST? Absolutely.. it's wonderful.

Understand Covenant. COVENANT. Fantastic!!!
Behold the Lamb!!

Like I said Give or don't give, there is a difference and there are repercussions.

So you stand by the Clear post that you will have negative ( - ) consequences if you don't tithe as the law instructs? I thought you just said you didn't?

[scooter]

So you stand by the Clear post that you will have negative ( - ) consequences if you don't tithe as the law instructs? I thought you just said you didn't?

Response: Has someone stolen your password?

You have a clear case of blind grace.

I say, tithing is a great way of living out cheerful giving NT style as a basic starting point of financial faithfulness.

I have never said tithe as the law instructs.

I clearly state that if you are not financially faithful, obedient to the Spirit, and a good steward there will be consequences.

[MacUser]

I have never said tithe as the law instructs.

I clearly state that if you are not financially faithful, obedient to the Spirit, and a good steward there will be consequences.

Brother. I'm just a level as I have always been. Near slap happy! Just because I don't align with your rising religious nature.. doesn't make me anything less.

I'm just asking single simple questions.. trying to fully understand here. Get to the root etc. If you are not following the law then.. what are the consequences? Whom is going to enact punishment as a result?

Finally.. seriously.. In all love.. give me some scripture instead of bold text, ok? I respond and enjoy reviewing that. Then everyone can understand proper context.

Thanks Bro.

[scooter]

Hbr 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?