tithing

[lance82]

Lance, you are stuck trying to prove you're point and you're not reading my posts, I have answered your questions and challenges, and I have stated that I'm not preaching it as a curse or salvation requirement, but yes it is a good standard to live by, and yes I believe the Spirit will lead people there just as he has done me, but yes I also teach it as a standard that Christ has taught me, just as I would teaching any other application of scripture to my life.

You are stating we are wrong to teach that tithing is appropriate and will be blessed by God, you asked me to seek HQ "official answer" and I told you I have it, in DVD form, and explained it to you, are there some that may be more heavy handed on it than needed? probably, are there some that are pushing the point of grace too far into wreckless abandon of any standards of living in Christ, yes, but I'm not judging you by those examples, there is a balance in this, and it's not about throwing out the law as useless and outdated, it's about putting it in context with the grace we have received, we are no longer under the law, but the law is not evil, it was God's Word given to guide men before the sacrifice of Christ would fulfill it.

Christ taught from the law, and explained that the law was created for man, not man for the law, we are not under the burden of the law, but we can draw from it's wisdom, and in doing so we are blessed by that wisdom, and the fruit it bears.

Response: I have not stated that "you are wrong to teach that tithing is appropriate and will be blessed by God". Rather I have said tithe if you feel led by the spirit and God will bless you if you are cheerful about it. But also that we need to sacrificially give.
Also in my last post I stated, " some have said that they don't believe it is a requirement and they don't teach it as such. This is not aimed at you".

You haven't answered these... 1. We have been taught for so long that tithing is the way, that we believe that there must be some standard taught. Where does the NT even say that?
2. The tithes required in the OT were various and never included cash income that I can find. Even when Jesus addressed the Pharisees, He was referring to only the foods tithe as they were required by the Law of Moses. The food tithe ended up being closer to 23 % annually than just the 10% we teach today. I cannot find anywhere where people gaining their income from anything other than the production of food are required to tithe anything; and those producing foods were required to tithe the food, not money, or pay an added penalty for doing so. Why aren't we teaching this?

This is copied from the COGOP stewardship page....
Tithing Answers:

Should I tithe on Social Security?Tithing itself is not a difficult concept, but it has raised some difficult questions as our society has grown more financially complex.
For example, many Christians wonder if they should tithe on their Social Security benefits.
Some people say that during their working years, they gave God a portion of the paychecks from which their Social Security deductions were taken. Therefore, they think they’ve already satisfied the giving requirement on their Social Security benefits.
If these people were average givers, they gave God about 3 percent of their income, according to research by Empty Tomb, Inc. Some may have given 10 percent. But regardless of what they gave, God still owned what was left. Bottom line, we can’t argue from a your share, my share perspective when dealing with God, because His share is 100 percent.
Also, consider that the money contributed to Social Security is quickly exhausted. In my book, Whatever Happened to the American Dream, I noted that “the average Social Security recipient draws out all his or her contributions in the first four years of retirement.”
To illustrate this point, we created a fictional character named Jim, who plans to retire on his 66th birthday, December 31, 2003. Jim began his working life in 1960, after college. We based his annual salary each year on median income figures from the U.S. Census Bureau. In 1960, Jim's annual income was $5,434. In 2001, it was $40,136, and so on.
"Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give . . . for God loves a cheerful giver."
During his working years, Jim earned a total of $926,153. A certain percentage of his income was deducted for Social Security. We’ll use the current deduction of 6.2 percent, giving him a total employee contribution of $57,235.
Based on payment calculators at Social Security’s Web site, Jim will receive a monthly benefit payment of $1,501.90. At this rate, he’ll get back his entire contribution in 39 months, or three years and three months. Beyond that, he’s receiving money deducted from someone else’s paycheck, money that he has not given to the Lord.
Jim could withhold tithing until 39 months have passed and deprive himself of the joy of giving and its attendant blessings. Or he could recognize God as owner and provider, and tithe on his Social Security income from the start.
Without a doubt, the latter option is best.
”God is able to make all grace abound to you, so that in all things at all times, having all that you need, you will abound in every good work.” (2 Corinthians 9:8)

Should I tithe on alimony or child support from my ex-husband?
Alimony is part of your ‘increase’ or personal financial gain, and you should tithe on that increase. But child support belongs to your children and isn’t part of your increase. If you desire to tithe on the child support, it would be good for you to tell your ex-spouse, not only to prevent legal ramifications but also as a personal testimony about your Christian commitment.

Should I tithe on my welfare benefits?
The Bible says, “Honor the Lord from your wealth and from the first of all your produce.” (Proverbs 3:9) This includes income from sources like paychecks, welfare benefits, investment returns, and so on. A tithe on your welfare benefits may not represent much, but it is your love for God and your commitment to honor Him that counts.

What about insurance payments received after the death of a spouse? Should I tithe on the lump sum or the interest earned ? or both?
This question takes us back to the principle of tithing on our increase, which includes infrequent sources of income like insurance payments, inheritances and income from the sale of a house.
If insurance proceeds are paid in a lump sum, a tithe should first be paid on the entire amount received. Afterward, a tithe should be paid on any increase received (interest, dividends) from the investment of those funds. If the proceeds are held in trust and distributed periodically, then a tithe should be paid on each distribution.

Could I use money from my tithe to help my elderly parent or parents who are in great need?In Matthew 15:5-6, Jesus condemned the Pharisees? practice of consecrating their possessions to God while their parents suffered need. In light of this, if the tithe is the only resource available to help your parents, give it to them.
But first, be sure there are absolutely no other funds you can use. This is something about which you need to pray and seek God’s direction. As you do, remember these words: “Each man should give what he has decided in his own heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.” (2 Corinthians 9:7) - end of stewardship quote

"A tithe should be paid". This looks like we teach that tithing is a must to me. At the very least it is implied. IMHO, the answer should be to all of these, "Each man should give what he has decided in his own heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.” (2 Corinthians 9:7)...period. Tithing could be taught as an example of giving from the OT, but not as a rule for the NT.

Under objectives of Stewardship Ministries this is listed, "To raise an awareness of tithing that empowers local churches." If tithing wasn't a must, shouldn't this read more like, "To raise an awareness of giving that stresses meeting needs, thus empowering local churches to be cheerful, sacrificial givers who are led by the Spirit into deeper relationship with the Father."?

To all... Again, I am looking for answers here to. Biblical support either way. I currently do tithe because that is what I said I would do as a member. I give beyond that all that I can. I do not plan to reduce anything. I am constantly praying to be able to do more. I see great needs that burden my heart. I just don't think we need to blackmail people to meet them.

[scooter]

1Jo 3:24 ¶ And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

[scooter]

Lance, you are stuck trying to prove you're point and you're not reading my posts, I have answered your questions and challenges, and I have stated that I'm not preaching it as a curse or salvation requirement, but yes it is a good standard to live by, and yes I believe the Spirit will lead people there just as he has done me, but yes I also teach it as a standard that Christ has taught me, just as I would teaching any other application of scripture to my life.

You are stating we are wrong to teach that tithing is appropriate and will be blessed by God, you asked me to seek HQ "official answer" and I told you I have it, in DVD form, and explained it to you, are there some that may be more heavy handed on it than needed? probably, are there some that are pushing the point of grace too far into wreckless abandon of any standards of living in Christ, yes, but I'm not judging you by those examples, there is a balance in this, and it's not about throwing out the law as useless and outdated, it's about putting it in context with the grace we have received, we are no longer under the law, but the law is not evil, it was God's Word given to guide men before the sacrifice of Christ would fulfill it.

Christ taught from the law, and explained that the law was created for man, not man for the law, we are not under the burden of the law, but we can draw from it's wisdom, and in doing so we are blessed by that wisdom, and the fruit it bears.

Response: I have not stated that "you are wrong to teach that tithing is appropriate and will be blessed by God". Rather I have said tithe if you feel led by the spirit and God will bless you if you are cheerful about it. But also that we need to sacrificially give.
Also in my last post I stated, " some have said that they don't believe it is a requirement and they don't teach it as such. This is not aimed at you".

You haven't answered these... 1. We have been taught for so long that tithing is the way, that we believe that there must be some standard taught. Where does the NT even say that?
2. The tithes required in the OT were various and never included cash income that I can find. Even when Jesus addressed the Pharisees, He was referring to only the foods tithe as they were required by the Law of Moses. The food tithe ended up being closer to 23 % annually than just the 10% we teach today. I cannot find anywhere where people gaining their income from anything other than the production of food are required to tithe anything; and those producing foods were required to tithe the food, not money, or pay an added penalty for doing so. Why aren't we teaching this?

This is copied from the COGOP stewardship page....
Tithing Answers:

Should I tithe on Social Security?Tithing itself is not a difficult concept, but it has raised some difficult questions as our society has grown more financially complex.
For example, many Christians wonder if they should tithe on their Social Security benefits.
Some people say that during their working years, they gave God a portion of the paychecks from which their Social Security deductions were taken. Therefore, they think they’ve already satisfied the giving requirement on their Social Security benefits.
If these people were average givers, they gave God about 3 percent of their income, according to research by Empty Tomb, Inc. Some may have given 10 percent. But regardless of what they gave, God still owned what was left. Bottom line, we can’t argue from a your share, my share perspective when dealing with God, because His share is 100 percent.
Also, consider that the money contributed to Social Security is quickly exhausted. In my book, Whatever Happened to the American Dream, I noted that “the average Social Security recipient draws out all his or her contributions in the first four years of retirement.”
To illustrate this point, we created a fictional character named Jim, who plans to retire on his 66th birthday, December 31, 2003. Jim began his working life in 1960, after college. We based his annual salary each year on median income figures from the U.S. Census Bureau. In 1960, Jim's annual income was $5,434. In 2001, it was $40,136, and so on.
"Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give . . . for God loves a cheerful giver."
During his working years, Jim earned a total of $926,153. A certain percentage of his income was deducted for Social Security. We’ll use the current deduction of 6.2 percent, giving him a total employee contribution of $57,235.
Based on payment calculators at Social Security’s Web site, Jim will receive a monthly benefit payment of $1,501.90. At this rate, he’ll get back his entire contribution in 39 months, or three years and three months. Beyond that, he’s receiving money deducted from someone else’s paycheck, money that he has not given to the Lord.
Jim could withhold tithing until 39 months have passed and deprive himself of the joy of giving and its attendant blessings. Or he could recognize God as owner and provider, and tithe on his Social Security income from the start.
Without a doubt, the latter option is best.
”God is able to make all grace abound to you, so that in all things at all times, having all that you need, you will abound in every good work.” (2 Corinthians 9:8)

Should I tithe on alimony or child support from my ex-husband?
Alimony is part of your ‘increase’ or personal financial gain, and you should tithe on that increase. But child support belongs to your children and isn’t part of your increase. If you desire to tithe on the child support, it would be good for you to tell your ex-spouse, not only to prevent legal ramifications but also as a personal testimony about your Christian commitment.

Should I tithe on my welfare benefits?
The Bible says, “Honor the Lord from your wealth and from the first of all your produce.” (Proverbs 3:9) This includes income from sources like paychecks, welfare benefits, investment returns, and so on. A tithe on your welfare benefits may not represent much, but it is your love for God and your commitment to honor Him that counts.

What about insurance payments received after the death of a spouse? Should I tithe on the lump sum or the interest earned ? or both?
This question takes us back to the principle of tithing on our increase, which includes infrequent sources of income like insurance payments, inheritances and income from the sale of a house.
If insurance proceeds are paid in a lump sum, a tithe should first be paid on the entire amount received. Afterward, a tithe should be paid on any increase received (interest, dividends) from the investment of those funds. If the proceeds are held in trust and distributed periodically, then a tithe should be paid on each distribution.

Could I use money from my tithe to help my elderly parent or parents who are in great need?In Matthew 15:5-6, Jesus condemned the Pharisees? practice of consecrating their possessions to God while their parents suffered need. In light of this, if the tithe is the only resource available to help your parents, give it to them.
But first, be sure there are absolutely no other funds you can use. This is something about which you need to pray and seek God’s direction. As you do, remember these words: “Each man should give what he has decided in his own heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.” (2 Corinthians 9:7) - end of stewardship quote

"A tithe should be paid". This looks like we teach that tithing is a must to me. At the very least it is implied. IMHO, the answer should be to all of these, "Each man should give what he has decided in his own heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.” (2 Corinthians 9:7)...period. Tithing could be taught as an example of giving from the OT, but not as a rule for the NT.

Under objectives of Stewardship Ministries this is listed, "To raise an awareness of tithing that empowers local churches." If tithing wasn't a must, shouldn't this read more like, "To raise an awareness of giving that stresses meeting needs, thus empowering local churches to be cheerful, sacrificial givers who are led by the Spirit into deeper relationship with the Father."?

To all... Again, I am looking for answers here to. Biblical support either way. I currently do tithe because that is what I said I would do as a member. I give beyond that all that I can. I do not plan to reduce anything. I am constantly praying to be able to do more. I see great needs that burden my heart. I just don't think we need to blackmail people to meet them.

Response: WOW. That's pretty detailed. In all seriousness let the Lord lead you in these questions. I'm sure HQ would say yes to all.lol

There are no Biblical facts which would detail "What is increase".

Don't stress about it so much. It shouldn't be a burdensome yolk. Let it be between you and God.

[MacUser]

Hbr 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Hebrews 10:29 ESV. A bit more clear..

How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has spurned the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace?

Where is the standard for financially faithful tithing as it relates to this?
This is for someone whom has knowledge of Christ experiences the freedom but turns their backs completely on God and literally goes against all related. It's going to be rough for this dude that rejects.

Faith IS key required. Agreed.

( Abraham was justified by Faith before the Law ) Romans 5:17 says you are RIGHTEOUS if you simply receive by Faith. Then you are lead by the indwelling of the Spirit whom this man spurned, profaned, outraged. This individual rejects it.

By Faith. My Father then Justifies. Fantastic!!!

[lance82]

Thanks Scooter. The concern for me is the yolk on the little ones.

[MacUser]

1Jo 3:24 ¶ And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

LOL.. did you read the entire phrase?

21. Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God 22. and receive from him anything we ask, because we obey his commands and do what pleases him. 23. And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us. 24Those who obey his commands live in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us.


I think it clears it up all by itself. No comment needed.
Beautiful & THANKS! Missed that one.

[scooter]

It's going to be rough for this dude that rejects.
!!!

Response: Really? I thought you were insinuating that there were no consequesnces for our actions.

[scooter]

1Jo 3:24 ¶ And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

LOL.. did you read the entire phrase?

21. Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God 22. and receive from him anything we ask, because we obey his commands and do what pleases him. 23. And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us. 24Those who obey his commands live in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us.


I think it clears it up all by itself. No comment needed.
Beautiful & THANKS! Missed that one.

Response: Everyone doesn't obey his commands.

[Pastor Bill]

If one is not finacially faithful there are repercussions.

So you don't teach under the Law... Really? Who is going to punish us for not giving tithes? Is this Fear? Perfect love cast out all fear. Brother.. I'm justified and free as it is GOD who justifies. Who is doing the condemning above?

I'm not Scooter, but I'd like to answer this one. No one, we have punished ourselves, by our lack of faithfulness, our lack of trust and release to God, how can God bless what we do not give him freedom to reign over?

It's not that God is going to zap us for being unfaithful, but unfaithfulness in and of itself is detrimental to our relationship with God. You can bless me with a check for $1,000,000.00 and if I do not have the faith to take it to the bank and cash it, I have lost that blessing. God can bless our lives, but if we don't trust him in ANY aspect of our live, how will we receive those blessings?

[Pastor Bill]

You know we're just wasting time here, you're set in your goal, and don't want to accept any other result, you're making assumptions on what "we" have been taught and what "we" teach when I've explained and pointed out that you are incorrect on these points.

Yes when someone asks "should I tithe on X" the answer is going to be yes, because 1) they are not asking should they tithe, they already have accepted that as God's will for their life, and they are looking for more detail. and 2) if they are asking should I, that means it is something they are considering doing for God, so yes if something is on your heart to do in service to Him, in all grace do it and you will be blessed in your service.

Now had the questions been MUST I tithe, you could see a different attitude coming out, and honestly while there are those at HQ that may disagree with me I would say no, you must not do anything, but we should be looking for ways to serve, not looking for ways to avoid serving.

This to me is no different than "Should I pray about X" or "should I study the Word about X" or "Should I worship God for X" the answer is always yes, If we truly accept His Grace and trust in His care for us, we will be looking for opportunities to serve in any way at any time. To strive over Should I do this or not do this because it may or may not be the law, is just a backwards way of getting right back to legalism, just serve God in any opportunity you have, if there is a standard that is, was or could be authored by God, you are not going to go wrong by following it, even if it isn't a requirement, because there is no requirement for salvation other than what Christ paid, but there is more to my life that I can turn over to Him.

[Full Quiver]

Scooter, where in the Scripture is tithing said to be a commandment? I've read the ten that are summed up in the 2 but tithing is not in there.

Jesus nailed the law to the cross. Why is that not enough said?

We criticize organizations that burden down people with legalism yet we all have our lines don't we?

[scooter]

Scooter, where in the Scripture is tithing said to be a commandment? I've read the ten that are summed up in the 2 but tithing is not in there.

Jesus nailed the law to the cross. Why is that not enough said?

We criticize organizations that burden down people with legalism yet we all have our lines don't we?

Response: I understand people are sometimes slow on the up take but if you all mention the law one more time I'll assume that your just playing games.

My point is that the New Covenant is that Jesus said that He would write His laws in our hearts and minds.

Jesus by His Spirit wrote the commandment that I should tithe on my heart. He also commanded me to teach whatsoever He commands me, that I will do.

My teaching on tithe is nothing like the OT law, has nothing to do with Levites, and is a great way to teach systematic faithfulness in ones finances based off of a Biblical model.

Do people get legalistic about tithing, sure. Is that wrong, sure.

However the Lord has impressed upon my mind and heart that command.

I am Spirit led. I am not OT dogmatic.

I don't know how many times or ways I can say that for one to see.

I simply meant to show that there are NT commands and there are consequences if we don't follow those commands. What is unfortunate is that gracers use the NT letters to trump the very words of Christ about faithfulness. I'm not talking about just tithing.

There is a gracer move on that there is no consequence for unfaithfulness it is on full display here. It just happens to circle around money. Imagine that.

If the Lord has impressed you to give freely and not tithe. Go for it. If your giving is less than 10% it wasn't the Lord impressing you.

[lance82]

Pastor Bill, I'm not set in my goal. Only looking for Scriptures to back up people's responses. I've been in this church 27 years. I give you facts and you you tell me they are assumptions. I keep saying if you aren't one that does it, then the comments aren't for you. I've asked pointed, direct questions and can't get answers from you. Sounds "same old/same old to me. So I guess you are right. I am wasting my time. But here goes anyway...
Webster's defines should as follows..."used in auxiliary function to express obligation, propriety, or expediency <'tis commanded I should do so — Shakespeare> <this is as it should be — H. L. Savage> <you should brush your teeth after each meal". Doesn't sound like an option to me. Someone asking "Should I tithe?" should then get an answer more like I stated before..."Each man should give what he has decided in his own heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.” (2 Corinthians 9:7) because it is not a Biblical command to tithe in the NT. Please show me scripturally the err in what I have posted. It sound like you agree with me on this.
Allot of people ask the questions because they have no way to pay a tithe; especially to the extent of gifts, insurance, ext. Too often people have left our organization due to this. I have known members being disciplined and even turned out because they were not tithing.

If I could find that a standard was set by God, I'd gladly adhere, as I do now cheerfully anyway regarding tithing and giving as I have already stated numerous times. But I shouldn't tell others that they should.

Please answer my questions.

[MacUser]

It's going to be rough for this dude that rejects.
!!!

Response: Really? I thought you were insinuating that there were no consequesnces for our actions.

MMmmm.. insinuating? I think that is your *ahem* strawman argument? LOL. Seriously... Did you even read my response? It was absolutely clear?

Love you Bro and pray Revelation on you!

[MacUser]

1Jo 3:24 ¶ And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

LOL.. did you read the entire phrase?

21. Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God 22. and receive from him anything we ask, because we obey his commands and do what pleases him. 23. And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us. 24Those who obey his commands live in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us.


I think it clears it up all by itself. No comment needed.
Beautiful & THANKS! Missed that one.

Response: Everyone doesn't obey his commands.

But. * exploding heart * WWhhooo Hooo.. what a great simple command!
23. And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another

Behold the LAMB!