tithing

[MacUser]

Now had the questions been MUST I tithe, you could see a different attitude coming out, and honestly while there are those at HQ that may disagree with me I would say no, you must not do anything, but we should be looking for ways to serve, not looking for ways to avoid serving.

You are so close ( with this post and above )... but I apologize in advance and out of love... if I continue to harp on this single point again above.

I submit that you will ( serve/give to ) your Father GREATER out of faith and love even more... when you trust in the indwelling of the Spirit over anything else substituted, shadow or dead guides.

Jesus didn't do it alone and we can't either. We have to do it in Faith and with our Father also. Why can't we put our Faith in this amazing passage? We have not reason to Fear. Only Religion has reason to fear this word.

John 5:19

19. Jesus gave them this answer: "I tell you the truth, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does. 20For the Father loves the Son and shows him all he does. Yes, to your amazement he will show him even greater things than these. 21For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son gives life to whom he is pleased to give it. 22 Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son, 23that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him

* mental summersaults *
Behold the LAMB!!!

[Full Quiver]

Let me clarify that I am not looking for a way to avoid serving.

IF, & many do, you use tithing as in the OT sense and say it's a commandment as has been done here & say there is a curse which happens in pulpits across America each & every week then you are not serving anyone but yourselves. Also you trip people up & cause people to avoid real Christian service. You can't put a dollar amount on a soul or on personal evangelism and Gospel spreading yet preachers love the tithe and make do without witnesses.

[Pastor Bill]

Mac, of course you don't accept the fact that you might be the one that is "so close"

You keep insisting that it's an either/or situation, assuming that if I consider the tithe, then I am not giving out of faith and love, and that is a false assumption. Lance you are doing the same.

Speaking of the Sabbath Christ explained that the Sabbath was created for man, not man for the sabbath, I would suggest that is true for all of OT law, it was not created to oppress or burden, but to guide and provide a standard to measure ourselves against.

Christ came not to abolish that law, but to fulfill it, to break the bondage and lift the burden of the law and provide grace, we all agree on that.

The difference we have is that in that you propose to throw aside the OT law completely while I suggest it still can be a good guide and standard we can use to check our hearts AS WE FOLLOW HIS SPIRIT, not instead of. Maybe I am just weaker, but throughout my life I have seen in myself and others a rend to slip back into old habits and lag behind at times in our following of the Spirit, the NT often warns of being drawn away by our own lusts, and this isn't talking about those that have no relationship to Christ, but even those that strive to seek Him daily.

While I am not under the law, I do recognize when my life starts crossing those lines that the law drew in the past, and I recognize that I may not be following as I need to. That Standard gives me a check when I'm not doing as well listening to the Spirit.

The law also provided me a guide as a young Christian learning to follow, when I was unsure of my ability to hear, when I was not confident in my walk, and for that I am thankful, not seeing it as a burden, but as a welcomed guide for my life, as I learned to lean and listen to His Spirit.

The law has it's purpose, even today, Christ taught from the law, He used it's examples, even followed it in His own life, that to me shows it is not an evil thing to be thrown out, but to be kept in proper perspective and context. and respected for what it is.

A verse comes to mind, it may not apply directly, but it parallels the heart of my understanding of law (knowledge) vs. Spirit.

What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.
Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest?

I will serve God with my understanding (of the law) not as a burden, but as a testimony, a guide and an act of willing obedience, and I will serve him in Spirit by that leading as well. This does not mean I am not following the Spirit, but on the contrary, it is as he has led me and to do otherwise would go against what His Spirit has placed in my heart.

[MacUser]

Mac, of course you don't accept the fact that you might be the one that is "so close"

In all love... I have no mixture of covenants. This is where I base this comment. I'm dead to the law. 100% New Man in Christ. Justified. Lead by the indwelling SPIRIT. No shadows, no mixtures. SERIOUSLY FREE. WHoo Hoo..

Romans 7

4. So, my brothers, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit to God. 5. For when we were controlled by the sinful nature, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in our bodies, so that we bore fruit for death. 6. But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.

This should clearly answer which is your guide. I am not saying this. The Word is. Truth.

You keep insisting that it's an either/or situation, assuming that if I consider the tithe, then I am not giving out of faith and love, and that is a false assumption.

No Brother.. I have not.. only posted multiple scriptures to clearly show I'm just aligning with the word. Truth. If it's done out of FAITH.. it's wonderful as it's the ONLY way to please God. Go back and read how many times I have posted this!! But if you use any other measuring stick other than FAITH.. it is literally dead works in an attempt to please God to gain a reward. It's not accepted. I hope this clarifies my posts.

Maybe I am just weaker, but throughout my life I have seen in myself and others a rend to slip back into old habits and lag behind at times in our following of the Spirit, the NT often warns of being drawn away by our own lusts, and this isn't talking about those that have no relationship to Christ, but even those that strive to seek Him daily.

You are not weaker.. just haven't fully received as Romans 5:17 states... to REIGN in this life is to simply RECEIVE... Abundance Grace/Gift of Righteous!! Zowie man. Just receive it. It's 100% free as a believer. I challenge you to do so.

Also here I point out that fact that you are placing a larger TRUST in the shadow values of the Law instead of freely TRUSTING in the indwelling Spirit. If you return to keep ANY of the laws you are bound to keep them ALL.

While I am not under the law, I do recognize when my life starts crossing those lines that the law drew in the past, and I recognize that I may not be following as I need to. That Standard gives me a check when I'm not doing as well listening to the Spirit. The law also provided me a guide as a young Christian learning to follow, when I was unsure of my ability to hear,

This is like when you have a disagreement / painful issue with your wife.. you locate an old photograph of her and have a chat with it. WHEN your WIFE.. is sitting in the very next room... living and BREATHING. We need understanding and revelation here!

Christ is our standard. Christ is our Guide. "Behold the Lamb" That phrase will explode in your head soon.

The law has it's purpose, even today, Christ taught from the law, He used it's examples, even followed it in His own life, that to me shows it is not an evil thing to be thrown out, but to be kept in proper perspective and context. and respected for what it is.

Oh.. this is deep here. Christ came to complete the Law and SET FORTH HIS NEW COVENANT!! Yes... Jesus taught under the law as the law extends from Mt Sinnai to the Supper / Cross. Then a massive pivotal cross over point was in John 15:15. Where He is introducing the NEW COVENANT!!! WHoo Hoooo!! Having completed it... He sat down!!

John 15:15

15. no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master's business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you. 16. You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit—fruit that will last. Then the Father will give you whatever you ask in my name. 17This is my command: Love each other.

Brother I do not seek to harm you or thwart you in any fashion from doing anything by Faith and following the Spirit. I desire to only follow and deliver Truth as revealed to me.

John 14:6

Jesus answered, "I am the way and the TRUTH and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

Behold the Lamb!!
Love to all.

[Pastor Bill]

So what you are trying to say is without completely throwing out and ignoring the law, I have not embraced grace?

Christ didn't ignore or throw out the law, so I guess I'm in good company!

you answered my question, you believe it's completely an either or situation, and on that point, we disagree. I completely understand what you are saying about freedom from the law, and not going back under bondage, I've lived in that for many years, but BY HIS SPIRIT, I have also learned to appreciate the law for it's purpose then, and it's wisdom even now. Not that I am under the law, or that I must obey the law, but that it was spoken by God as guidelines for those that had not yet received grace, and while it holds no power over me, I can see God's hand in it's existence, and many of it's principles fall in line with God's will in my life, and His Spirit has directed me to points of the law which do still guide me, and in that I will follow His Spirit, rather than your understanding of those scriptures.

You keep saying that I am "so close" but if you step back from the point you are trying to push, you may realize that being "so close" to your point, even if it is what God is opening up to you right now, may not be a full understanding. I am glad He is blessing you with it, and I agree with most of what you are saying, but you have to understand that as you continue to study the word, He may open even more to you that I am seeing now and you are not, or it may be that I am wrong, and He is not opening that up to me right now, but leading me in my current understanding. Neither one of us knows it all, I'm willing to admit that, but you've latched on to this and don't seem to even accept the possibility that God can use the principles in HIS OWN WORD to continue to guide us, and that seems a little narrow minded.

[lance82]

Pastor Bill wrote - "
You keep insisting that it's an either/or situation, assuming that if I consider the tithe, then I am not giving out of faith and love, and that is a false assumption. Lance you are doing the same."

Response - No Pastor, I am not. I've stated clearly that you must give as the Spirit directs you and do it cheerfully. You said that the Spirit led YOU to tithe 10%, and you do it cheerfully & give above and beyond that cheerfully as well. You are doing what is NT teaching. My problem is that you are teaching others to do as you do(tithe 10%) as a standard, when, IMHO, it is not scripturally valid. Not that you teach it as law either. You yoke others with what is your own conviction, not necessarily theirs.

Again you haven't answered the questions I have posed...
1. ... we believe that there must be some standard taught. Where does the NT even say that?
2. The tithes required in the OT were various and never included cash income that I can find. Even when Jesus addressed the Pharisees, He was referring to only the food tithe as they were required by the Law of Moses. The food tithe ended up being closer to 23 % annually than just the 10% we teach today. I cannot find anywhere that people who gained their income from anything other than the production of food were required to tithe anything; and those producing foods were required to tithe the food, not money, or pay an added penalty for doing so. Why aren't we teaching this?

[scooter]

If you return to keep ANY of the laws you are bound to keep them ALL..

Response: Oh the joy! I get it! We are truly free from any law, Woopee! Woopee with the nieghboors wife, woopee with the neighbor, woopee with the nieghbors dog. Oh isn't this amazing grace!! Oh if everyone could understand that all our sins are under the blood! Woopee Remember any law, right.

I am free to be an unfaithful bum! I'm free! God doesn't care about our faithfulness! Woopee!

As I know or hope you are not saying this, at least I hope you know better in Christ. You full well know that this is no longer about the law. It is simply dishonest to continue to imply that as the basis for you argument.

For you to imply that faithful stewards and unfaithful stewards have the same reward spits in the face of what Christ taught. Woopee!

[Pastor Bill]

Lance,

For Question 1, see Romans Chapter 7, over and over it states that the law is holy and good. I started to copy and paste here, but I'd be pasting most of the chapter.

I 100% agree we are free from sin, which is the burden and conviction of the law, but the law in and of itself is holy of God.

If you want to ignore and throw that out, then there isn't much point it continuing the conversation.

As for Question 2, you complain about legalism, then get more legalistic than we do with it. I really don't know how to answer you on that one. As I (and others) have stated many times, we aren't advocating the law and watching every jot and tittle, only accepting that the principles given are good, and valid and can be of benefit in our lives today as God lead us we are blessed in following those guidelines as He purposes and instructs us in our lives and in our teachings.

[MacUser]

but you've latched on to this and don't seem to even accept the possibility that God can use the principles in HIS OWN WORD to continue to guide us, and that seems a little narrow minded.

Oh Brother.. The reason I do so is because of the scriptures I posted and how they and others clearly state this point. We seek Truth. We are dead to the Law. Read them for yourselves.

Yes... We need to be absolutely sure that we understand the New Covenant we are under. And constantly check/renew our minds that we don't have a mixture of covenants. One was completely done away with a BETTER PROMISE. Fantastic!

Yes... This has to be settled in our hearts. So that we therefore come BOLDLY into this revelation of Romans 5:17. I could post SOOO many scriptures over and over. Yet only we can receive the Love of God.

1 John 4 NIV

6 And so we know and rely on the love God has for us. God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in him. 17 In this way, love is made complete among us so that we will have confidence on the day of judgment, because in this world we are like him. 18There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.

The KJV says this.. "because as he is, so are we in this world."

This IS the GOOD NEWS.. The GOSPEL.

*triple axle mental twists landed every stinking time!!*
Behold the Lamb!!!

[MacUser]

I am free to be an unfaithful bum! I'm free! God doesn't care about our faithfulness! Woopee!

LOL.. In marches the strawman arguments. I've said nothing of the sort.
At least it's not bold screaming oversized letters. You're growing Scooter. I'm proud of you!

(Definition of Strawman)
A straw man argument is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position.[1] To "attack a straw man" is to create the illusion of having refuted a proposition by substituting a superficially similar yet unequivalent proposition (the "straw man"), and refuting it, without ever having actually refuted the original position.[1][2]

I love your posts.. but when you have a reply to the Scripture I've posted in complete context. Let me know.

[Pastor Bill]

MacUser, you seem to think by posting verses that focus on the facts we AGREE ON that you are proving a point that has nothing to do with those. I'm not mixing covenants, or confused on the sole source of our strength and our salvation, I am simply stating that the law had and has it's purpose, and should not be thrown out because NO verse says that it should be, see my last post to Lance, you have quoted many times from Romans 6, but take a look at Romans 7, how do verses 7, 12 or 14 fit with your idea of completely abandoning the law?

If the law is holy (verse 12) and spiritual (verse 14) why do you insist on rejecting even the notion that it could guide us in any way shape or form? Verse 7 even asks the question "Is the law sin?" you seem to be saying yes, the law is the old covenant, and to give it any consideration in our lives would be "mixing covenants" or rejecting grace. I'm sorry, but that just doesn't line up with scripture.

I understand your focus on grace, and frankly I AGREE with you, but having been saved by Grace, I am free from sin, and can choose to let God's word, INCLUDING HIS LAW bless me and guide me, not as a burden, but an uplifting strength, a standard that helps me to focus on what His Spirit is doing in my life, I am led by His Spirit, and that Spirit not only co-exists with His Word but complements and strengthens it in my life. To reject these things that God has led me to just because they parallel the old covenant would be rejecting the leading of His Spirit AND His Word.

I'm sorry if that doesn't fit with your personal revelation, but His Word and His Spirit guide my life and that is more reliable than your personal doctrinal understanding or revelations.

[scooter]

I am free to be an unfaithful bum! I'm free! God doesn't care about our faithfulness! Woopee!

LOL.. In marches the strawman arguments. I've said nothing of the sort.
At least it's not bold screaming oversized letters. You're growing Scooter. I'm proud of you!

(Definition of Strawman)
A straw man argument is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position.[1] To "attack a straw man" is to create the illusion of having refuted a proposition by substituting a superficially similar yet unequivalent proposition (the "straw man"), and refuting it, without ever having actually refuted the original position.[1][2]

I love your posts.. but when you have a reply to the Scripture I've posted in complete context. Let me know.

Response: We are ten pages in and you still present the "strawman" that we are talking about keeping the law.

Even after being told point blank different.

I know, I know you're smarter and more enlightened and we just don't realize that we are.

It is no straw man to carry your reason to the end that I have. Why do you not sleep with your nieghbors wife?? It was a OT law. You said if you keep one part you keep it all.

There is a new law with the new covenant and you keep some of those I hope, yet you attribute it in no way to the "law".

I hope your understanding gets to the point where you can mesh Christ's teachings with the NT letters. Without that your grace is run amuck.

It's nothing new. I see it all the time.

Grace without limits. Woopee

Now I know you'll say, you have limits, but no law, right. What ever floats your boat.

It's simply dishonest for you to run to your strawman "the law", and then claim you adhere to any NT law.

[MacUser]

[
It's nothing new. I see it all the time.

*sigh*... Love to you all. No, no we are not enemies.. but brothers and sisters in Christ and I do sincerely love you all. I have been completely honest in this discussion about my revelations/passions/study and backed it up at every point while trying to remain on *ahem* topic.

Actually I cut back on probably half of the posts because I didn't want to be seen as to slap happy.

Regardless I have completely and thoroughly enjoyed this. It's been wonderful to share with you.

Regardless if we disagree on tiny points.. I pray our provoking chats encourages every Child of God to seek a deeper Faith based relationship with the Lamb of God. Encouraged them to listen and trust the living Spirit, the better promise and do as He so instructs in each of our individual lives.

It it's done that way in Faith.. it's wonderful!

God Bless!

&

Behold the Lamb!!!

[lance82]

Lance,

For Question 1, see Romans Chapter 7, over and over it states that the law is holy and good. I started to copy and paste here, but I'd be pasting most of the chapter.

I 100% agree we are free from sin, which is the burden and conviction of the law, but the law in and of itself is holy of God.

If you want to ignore and throw that out, then there isn't much point it continuing the conversation.

As for Question 2, you complain about legalism, then get more legalistic than we do with it. I really don't know how to answer you on that one. As I (and others) have stated many times, we aren't advocating the law and watching every jot and tittle, only accepting that the principles given are good, and valid and can be of benefit in our lives today as God lead us we are blessed in following those guidelines as He purposes and instructs us in our lives and in our teachings.

I get "more" legalistic? How say ye? I am asking you... since you are teaching a standard... why not the true standard that the Law held. Not one that is easier to hit?
Romans 7:4-6... 4So, my brothers, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit to God. 5For when we were controlled by the sinful nature,[a] the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in our bodies, so that we bore fruit for death. 6But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.
Says to me that the law binds unto death but we DIED TO THE LAW through the Body of Christ. How do you miss that? I see it even when the letters aren't in Bold type.

God bless!

[Pastor Bill]

Lance,

For Question 1, see Romans Chapter 7, over and over it states that the law is holy and good. I started to copy and paste here, but I'd be pasting most of the chapter.

I 100% agree we are free from sin, which is the burden and conviction of the law, but the law in and of itself is holy of God.

If you want to ignore and throw that out, then there isn't much point it continuing the conversation.

As for Question 2, you complain about legalism, then get more legalistic than we do with it. I really don't know how to answer you on that one. As I (and others) have stated many times, we aren't advocating the law and watching every jot and tittle, only accepting that the principles given are good, and valid and can be of benefit in our lives today as God lead us we are blessed in following those guidelines as He purposes and instructs us in our lives and in our teachings.

I get "more" legalistic? How say ye? I am asking you... since you are teaching a standard... why not the true standard that the Law held. Not one that is easier to hit?
Romans 7:4-6... 4So, my brothers, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit to God. 5For when we were controlled by the sinful nature,[a] the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in our bodies, so that we bore fruit for death. 6But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.
Says to me that the law binds unto death but we DIED TO THE LAW through the Body of Christ. How do you miss that? I see it even when the letters aren't in Bold type.

God bless!

Again Lance, I'm not teaching people to go back to the law, I've said that over and over, but you seem to keep missing that point, I'm simply stating that there was wisdom in the law, as it is God's word, and this particular principle makes a good standard that can help, and as the Spirit has led me to follow it, and to teach it as a valid standard, not as a law, it does not contradict the new covenant, nor does it constitute a return to trusting the law over grace, but simply gives a solid standard to assist in structuring finances and budgeting, and trusting God in your finances (tithing and beyond, both by the leading of the Spirit, cheerfully and faithfully) is a blessing.