tithing

[dawgs10]

Lance,

For Question 1, see Romans Chapter 7, over and over it states that the law is holy and good. I started to copy and paste here, but I'd be pasting most of the chapter.

I 100% agree we are free from sin, which is the burden and conviction of the law, but the law in and of itself is holy of God.

If you want to ignore and throw that out, then there isn't much point it continuing the conversation.

As for Question 2, you complain about legalism, then get more legalistic than we do with it. I really don't know how to answer you on that one. As I (and others) have stated many times, we aren't advocating the law and watching every jot and tittle, only accepting that the principles given are good, and valid and can be of benefit in our lives today as God lead us we are blessed in following those guidelines as He purposes and instructs us in our lives and in our teachings.

I get "more" legalistic? How say ye? I am asking you... since you are teaching a standard... why not the true standard that the Law held. Not one that is easier to hit?
Romans 7:4-6... 4So, my brothers, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit to God. 5For when we were controlled by the sinful nature,[a] the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in our bodies, so that we bore fruit for death. 6But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.
Says to me that the law binds unto death but we DIED TO THE LAW through the Body of Christ. How do you miss that? I see it even when the letters aren't in Bold type.

God bless!

Again Lance, I'm not teaching people to go back to the law, I've said that over and over, but you seem to keep missing that point, I'm simply stating that there was wisdom in the law, as it is God's word, and this particular principle makes a good standard that can help, and as the Spirit has led me to follow it, and to teach it as a valid standard, not as a law, it does not contradict the new covenant, nor does it constitute a return to trusting the law over grace, but simply gives a solid standard to assist in structuring finances and budgeting, and trusting God in your finances (tithing and beyond, both by the leading of the Spirit, cheerfully and faithfully) is a blessing.

just hit the like button again pastor bill.

[Full Quiver]

Scooter, what I am reading is that Christ has written the OT law on your heart and therefore you keep the tithing system, not the sabbath, but the tithe.

Where in the NT did Peter, Paul, James, or John teach tithing as a NT principle?

[scooter]

FQ has God written the OT law on your heart that you shouldn't sleep with animals? Show me where they taught against that.

If you don't get it by now you aint going to get it.

[RamboPreacher]

The tithe. happened for various reasons before "the law".
It happened as part of the aforementioned law.
It also happened in the NT (post law?)

There is no "though shalt tithe" command. But it is part of the threads of Scripture from "beginning to end". I believe it is not a "minimum", but rather a NT paradigm of a starting place for stewardship and a lifestyle of giving.

[dolfan]

The apostles did not specifically reach a variety of issues. Paul, though, made it very clear that NT believers should support the ministry, and he specifically alluded to the Law of Moses as the authority for it in 1 Corinthians 9. Now, it seems to me that the 10% figure is splitting hairs. I don't want to split hairs on things between God and me. I'm guilty enough of that every day, trust me, and I mean that in my own ways of thinking and not just from some "well, yeah, you're a lawyer, blah blah" kind of thing. I'm a hair-splitter. It is not a virtue. I don't want to split hairs with God about what my duty to Him and His body is. The principle is there, if you'll receive it. If not, then I'm not your judge -- far from it.

[scooter]

The apostles did not specifically reach a variety of issues. Paul, though, made it very clear that NT believers should support the ministry, and he specifically alluded to the Law of Moses as the authority for it in 1 Corinthians 9. Now, it seems to me that the 10% figure is splitting hairs. I don't want to split hairs on things between God and me. I'm guilty enough of that every day, trust me, and I mean that in my own ways of thinking and not just from some "well, yeah, you're a lawyer, blah blah" kind of thing. I'm a hair-splitter. It is not a virtue. I don't want to split hairs with God about what my duty to Him and His body is. The principle is there, if you'll receive it. If not, then I'm not your judge -- far from it.

Response: I'm not a hair splitter either, I just know that in our organization if someone doesn't tithe they sow sparingly in giving, as a general observation, based on 17 years of being involved in local church finances.

Also FYI Jesus watched what people gave.

I have had to know how much money we have, as a church, in what account ie general expense, missionary, etc. and since tithes pays the pastor in our organization pays the pastor, I know my check.lol

Our givers are tithers. Our non tithers are also non givers.

I know that when one tither and his/her offering surpasses the entire collection, no one is "giving" more.

I do understand that there are people that do give more. It's just not the rule with what I have observed.

One final note, no one is giving all either.

That includes us and the widows.

[dolfan]

The apostles did not specifically reach a variety of issues. Paul, though, made it very clear that NT believers should support the ministry, and he specifically alluded to the Law of Moses as the authority for it in 1 Corinthians 9. Now, it seems to me that the 10% figure is splitting hairs. I don't want to split hairs on things between God and me. I'm guilty enough of that every day, trust me, and I mean that in my own ways of thinking and not just from some "well, yeah, you're a lawyer, blah blah" kind of thing. I'm a hair-splitter. It is not a virtue. I don't want to split hairs with God about what my duty to Him and His body is. The principle is there, if you'll receive it. If not, then I'm not your judge -- far from it.

Response: I'm not a hair splitter either, I just know that in our organization if someone doesn't tithe they sow sparingly in giving, as a general observation, based on 17 years of being involved in local church finances.

Also FYI Jesus watched what people gave.

I have had to know how much money we have, as a church, in what account ie general expense, missionary, etc. and since tithes pays the pastor in our organization pays the pastor, I know my check.lol

Our givers are tithers. Our non tithers are also non givers.

I know that when one tither and his/her offering surpasses the entire collection, no one is "giving" more.

I do understand that there are people that do give more. It's just not the rule with what I have observed.

One final note, no one is giving all either.

That includes us and the widows.

I know you're not splitting hairs!! I'm just being honest about my own tendencies because I was responding to FQ's implication that Peter, Paul, James and John did not teach tithing as a NT princple. Although Paul did not specifically say "tithe" in 1 Cor. 9, I think it is hair-splitting to respond to his principled teaching there with, "Well, he didn't say 'tithe'." I just wanted to make sure that when I pointed that out that I'm not innocent of hair-splitting when it suits my purposes.

[scooter]

The apostles did not specifically reach a variety of issues. Paul, though, made it very clear that NT believers should support the ministry, and he specifically alluded to the Law of Moses as the authority for it in 1 Corinthians 9. Now, it seems to me that the 10% figure is splitting hairs. I don't want to split hairs on things between God and me. I'm guilty enough of that every day, trust me, and I mean that in my own ways of thinking and not just from some "well, yeah, you're a lawyer, blah blah" kind of thing. I'm a hair-splitter. It is not a virtue. I don't want to split hairs with God about what my duty to Him and His body is. The principle is there, if you'll receive it. If not, then I'm not your judge -- far from it.

Response: I'm not a hair splitter either, I just know that in our organization if someone doesn't tithe they sow sparingly in giving, as a general observation, based on 17 years of being involved in local church finances.

Also FYI Jesus watched what people gave.

I have had to know how much money we have, as a church, in what account ie general expense, missionary, etc. and since tithes pays the pastor in our organization pays the pastor, I know my check.lol

Our givers are tithers. Our non tithers are also non givers.

I know that when one tither and his/her offering surpasses the entire collection, no one is "giving" more.

I do understand that there are people that do give more. It's just not the rule with what I have observed.

One final note, no one is giving all either.

That includes us and the widows.

I know you're not splitting hairs!! I'm just being honest about my own tendencies because I was responding to FQ's implication that Peter, Paul, James and John did not teach tithing as a NT princple. Although Paul did not specifically say "tithe" in 1 Cor. 9, I think it is hair-splitting to respond to his principled teaching there with, "Well, he didn't say 'tithe'." I just wanted to make sure that when I pointed that out that I'm not innocent of hair-splitting when it suits my purposes.

Response: I get it and I hear ya. lol

[dawgs10]

The tithe. happened for various reasons before "the law".
It happened as part of the aforementioned law.
It also happened in the NT (post law?)

There is no "though shalt tithe" command. But it is part of the threads of Scripture from "beginning to end". I believe it is not a "minimum", but rather a NT paradigm of a starting place for stewardship and a lifestyle of giving.

bingo!!!! abraham gave before the law. although we cannot call something a tithe unless its 10% because tithe is 10%. a tithe is not held within the law because it preceded it.

[MacUser]

Yesterday we visited a friends Church.. gave freely in the plate and toward the end they quickly expressed Pastoral Appreciation to our friend.

As service ended my wife stopped me and prompted me to give our Friend something special $$$. She said the Lord just prompted her in her Spirit to give ( x amount ) and I said.. "Fantastic".. and I couldn't get my wallet out open fast enough.

You give because you were first given to. Because you freely received it.. you can then offer it in Faith freely ( fully pleasing to God ). You show love, mercy [insert x here] because it was first given freely to you. On the other hand... you receive from people what you give/teach. SO Give/Teach the Freedom of the SPIRIT!!

When you rejoice in Truth and what the Spirit WILL tell you... it's Beautiful.

God Bless!!

[scooter]

When we hit twelve pages, 144 viewers will become faithful in their finances!

[Pastor Bill]

Yesterday we visited a friends Church.. gave freely in the plate and toward the end they quickly expressed Pastoral Appreciation to our friend.

As service ended my wife stopped me and prompted me to give our Friend something special $$$. She said the Lord just prompted her in her Spirit to give ( x amount ) and I said.. "Fantastic".. and I couldn't get my wallet out open fast enough.

You give because you were first given to. Because you freely received it.. you can then offer it in Faith freely ( fully pleasing to God ). You show love, mercy [insert x here] because it was first given freely to you. On the other hand... you receive from people what you give/teach. SO Give/Teach the Freedom of the SPIRIT!!

When you rejoice in Truth and what the Spirit WILL tell you... it's Beautiful.

God Bless!!

Great for you brother, no one here is speaking against that, unfortunately you assume that we can't hear from God or follow him if we hold ourselves accountable to a standard taught by His own Word.

If you could only see that Freedom isn't limited in that way, you might be able to grasp what we are saying.

We have done the same thing, even not in a church service, by the prompting of the Spirit, but I guess it doesn't mean as much, because I am also faithful in my tithes.

[lance82]

The apostles did not specifically reach a variety of issues. Paul, though, made it very clear that NT believers should support the ministry, and he specifically alluded to the Law of Moses as the authority for it in 1 Corinthians 9. Now, it seems to me that the 10% figure is splitting hairs. I don't want to split hairs on things between God and me. I'm guilty enough of that every day, trust me, and I mean that in my own ways of thinking and not just from some "well, yeah, you're a lawyer, blah blah" kind of thing. I'm a hair-splitter. It is not a virtue. I don't want to split hairs with God about what my duty to Him and His body is. The principle is there, if you'll receive it. If not, then I'm not your judge -- far from it.

Response: It seems to me that Moses was specifically addressing taking care of your livestock, servants, etc. Paul here uses it to implore the Churchs to take care of their ministers. I don't want to split hairs either, but to pull tithing out of that is indeed a stretch.

Again, I am not against using examples of what was done in the OT. My problem lies in teaching tithing as a must or be cursed. Asking people if they are tithing. Pushing the tithe in sermons; almost giving an altar call(come to Jesus moment) for those who haven't yet seen the light. People being turned out of the church for not tithing. Not being allowed to participate in decision making/business conferences because of not tithing. ETC... Why a yoke, when there should not be one?

Galations 4:21Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law? 22For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. 23But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise. 24Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. 25For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. 26But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all. 27For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband. 28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise. 29But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now. 30Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman. 31So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.
Galatians 5:1Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. 2Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. 3For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. 4Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. 5For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. 6For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love. 7Ye did run well; who did hinder you that ye should not obey the truth? 8This persuasion cometh not of him that calleth you. 9A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump. 10I have confidence in you through the Lord, that ye will be none otherwise minded: but he that troubleth you shall bear his judgment, whosoever he be. 11And I, brethren, if I yet preach circumcision, why do I yet suffer persecution? then is the offence of the cross ceased. 12I would they were even cut off which trouble you. 13For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another. 14For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 15But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another. 16This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. 17For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. 18But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. 19Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. 22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. 24And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. 25If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. 26Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.

5:16 is the crux of the whole issue. People need to be taught and discipled to live HOLY lives... not to obey laws or meet standards. Seek Him, love Him. Love his people. Love the scriptures, because He is found in them. People who do so will live sacrificially, thus giving to meet, even exceed, needs will not be an issue.

Peace!
Lance

[lance82]

Yesterday we visited a friends Church.. gave freely in the plate and toward the end they quickly expressed Pastoral Appreciation to our friend.

As service ended my wife stopped me and prompted me to give our Friend something special $$$. She said the Lord just prompted her in her Spirit to give ( x amount ) and I said.. "Fantastic".. and I couldn't get my wallet out open fast enough.

You give because you were first given to. Because you freely received it.. you can then offer it in Faith freely ( fully pleasing to God ). You show love, mercy [insert x here] because it was first given freely to you. On the other hand... you receive from people what you give/teach. SO Give/Teach the Freedom of the SPIRIT!!

When you rejoice in Truth and what the Spirit WILL tell you... it's Beautiful.

God Bless!!

Great for you brother, no one here is speaking against that, unfortunately you assume that we can't hear from God or follow him if we hold ourselves accountable to a standard taught by His own Word.

If you could only see that Freedom isn't limited in that way, you might be able to grasp what we are saying.

We have done the same thing, even not in a church service, by the prompting of the Spirit, but I guess it doesn't mean as much, because I am also faithful in my tithes.

Response: The whole point is that Holy Spirit speaks to all of us individually. The problem for me is that people are teaching what He has told them to personally do as if it is what everyone must/should do. Allow Him to speak to others, not preach conviction on them. I think the churches would grow more. Discipleship opportunities would grow. Needs would be met in abundance. Evangelism would spread.

As a church we have been slow to move on issues. I have had friends and seen others turn away from COPOG for jewelry being removed in the altar by well-meaning ministers. I have seen members turned out and "brought up on charges" for not tithing. I have seen ministers pass the plate repeatedly in the same service because the offering wasn't enough. I have seen people turned out due to visible sin, while nothing was done to restore. Seen growing ministry endeavours ceased because of complaint of "they are only coming for the free food".

We have to stop. Whole families lost due to yokes that aren't scriptural. We need to understand that unchurched people see churches as money hungry establishments that only "want my money". Take it or leave it. It is truth. I have friends who are or have been waitstaffers in restaurants. They dispise church groups because they are "stingy, demanding, rude people. But go to their churches and all they want is my money."

I truly believe that this is one of the biggest reasons our churches are not full. Too much emphasis on money. I hear when others have said that we have to meet the bills, pay the ministry, etc. I agree. But more people don't only mean full pews. They mean more $$$$$ as well to meet those needs to win more souls.

I know for the most part that I am preaching to the choir.

It comes down to living Holy lives and desiring to be like Him.

Peace!

[Pastor Bill]

Lance,

Again, you are painting with a very broad brush, and wanting to throw out correct teaching in response to errors rather than correcting the errors.

As I have stated over and over, what you are describing is not me, is not what I teach, and is not the norm of what I have experienced in the church.

BUT I have experienced many who tithing has given the structure to help them to understand how to trust God in their finances, who have seen this standard in the Word of God and been blessed by it, learning FROM it to trust the Spirit's leading in such manners, to gain perspective on their giving and God's blessings.

Yet you insist that I should not teach these things and imply I am destroying the church and putting people under the law.

I have seen much damage done by those that take the teaching you are pushing to the extreme and completely drop holiness from their vocabulary, seeking only what feels good, and resting in a notion that God's grace will cover anything their own lusts desire.

Now I'm not implying that you are anywhere near that extreme, but I think if you stop for a moment and consider the fact it's not the teaching that's the problem, but those that push a concept to it's extreme and lose the context of God's Word and God's Will in their lives. That extreme out of balance application of scripture can be applied to tithing (as you have shown over and over) or just about any biblical concept and it can be used both to not only destroy the witness of the church, but people's personal lives and relationships with God.

Just as you are not doing that with what you are trying to explain here, we aren't doing that with the biblical concept of tithing, and pushing toward the opposite extreme doesn't make things better, it just causes new problems.

The Legalism you push against now was a reaction to a lack of holiness seen 100-150 years ago, that liberality was a reaction to the legalism of the previous times, and so on and so forth, it can be traced throughout history. Instead of continuing the cycle of pendulum swings, seek the true balance of God's Word, where His Grace is sufficient, and His Law (written upon our hearts) guides our lives. This is not an either or situation as you are trying to force it to be.