tithing

[lance82]

Lance,

Again, you are painting with a very broad brush, and wanting to throw out correct teaching in response to errors rather than correcting the errors.

As I have stated over and over, what you are describing is not me, is not what I teach, and is not the norm of what I have experienced in the church.

BUT I have experienced many who tithing has given the structure to help them to understand how to trust God in their finances, who have seen this standard in the Word of God and been blessed by it, learning FROM it to trust the Spirit's leading in such manners, to gain perspective on their giving and God's blessings.

Yet you insist that I should not teach these things and imply I am destroying the church and putting people under the law.

I have seen much damage done by those that take the teaching you are pushing to the extreme and completely drop holiness from their vocabulary, seeking only what feels good, and resting in a notion that God's grace will cover anything their own lusts desire.

Now I'm not implying that you are anywhere near that extreme, but I think if you stop for a moment and consider the fact it's not the teaching that's the problem, but those that push a concept to it's extreme and lose the context of God's Word and God's Will in their lives. That extreme out of balance application of scripture can be applied to tithing (as you have shown over and over) or just about any biblical concept and it can be used both to not only destroy the witness of the church, but people's personal lives and relationships with God.

Just as you are not doing that with what you are trying to explain here, we aren't doing that with the biblical concept of tithing, and pushing toward the opposite extreme doesn't make things better, it just causes new problems.

The Legalism you push against now was a reaction to a lack of holiness seen 100-150 years ago, that liberality was a reaction to the legalism of the previous times, and so on and so forth, it can be traced throughout history. Instead of continuing the cycle of pendulum swings, seek the true balance of God's Word, where His Grace is sufficient, and His Law (written upon our hearts) guides our lives. This is not an either or situation as you are trying to force it to be.

Pastor,
I believe that we both feel the same way regarding the legalism aspect of it. My difference is only in believing that, regardless of the % someone gives, God blesses a cheerful, Spirit-led giver. I think you believe that as well. I just bristle(for lack of a better word) when a % point is added to measure it.

Peace!

[MacUser]

Hey mine was just a thought post!
*sigh* if I must reply....

Great for you brother, no one here is speaking against that, unfortunately you assume that we can't hear from God or follow him if we hold ourselves accountable to a standard taught by His own Word.

Really? Then what I posted should not have offended you? My apologies if I did. We all seek Truth here right? I'm not assuming you can't hear anything? Far from it. I just point over and over that your standard is the living Christ... not a dead shadow of the past. I've done nothing but repeat the word in love. I'm not making anything up. Whether you follow a dead "example" code or not.. It counts for nothing.

Galatians 5:6 NAB
For in Christ Jesus, neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith working through love.

If you could only see that Freedom isn't limited in that way, you might be able to grasp what we are saying.

Pointing again to my above statement.... I'm 100% Free!! Whoo hoo.. Justified. My High Priest and Standard / Guide is Christ.

We have done the same thing, even not in a church service, by the prompting of the Spirit, but I guess it doesn't mean as much, because I am also faithful in my tithes.

You again also confuse me here with someone else. I do not condemn you.. only offer my interpretation of the word.. the New Covenant we are under.. The FREE GOSPEL.. and hope that my take doesn't offend a fellow brother. That isn't my intent.

Galatians 5:15
But if you go on biting and devouring one another, beware that you are not consumed by one another.

Please don't take my posts as dividing because we are all brothers in Christ. For 40 years I've grasped things the way you did only to have personal revelation in my personal Spirit. It has set me FREE.

Free to Truly Love, Give Abundantly, Show Mercy... because I have freely received it. It's wonderful.

God Bless!!

[dawgs10]

Yesterday we visited a friends Church.. gave freely in the plate and toward the end they quickly expressed Pastoral Appreciation to our friend.

As service ended my wife stopped me and prompted me to give our Friend something special $$$. She said the Lord just prompted her in her Spirit to give ( x amount ) and I said.. "Fantastic".. and I couldn't get my wallet out open fast enough.

You give because you were first given to. Because you freely received it.. you can then offer it in Faith freely ( fully pleasing to God ). You show love, mercy [insert x here] because it was first given freely to you. On the other hand... you receive from people what you give/teach. SO Give/Teach the Freedom of the SPIRIT!!

When you rejoice in Truth and what the Spirit WILL tell you... it's Beautiful.

God Bless!!

that was a wonderful blessing and was an offering. (but not a tithe).

[Pastor Bill]

Macuser and Lance

I guess the issue is that either you don't understand what I mean by a "standard" or you really feel that Christians don't need to live by any standards.

Pointing to Christ as our standard is great, in theory, but in practice it doesn't work, because none of us can measure up to Christ, Christ's life and walk aren't the same as what we are living in, nor is it supposed to be, there is not a need for another Savior (which is good, because no one is qualified to do it anyway).

A standard is something you can measure yourself against, hold yourself accountable to, gage your progress, etc.

A child grows and we look for certain milestones, first words, first steps, etc. If a 5 year old still can't speak, we recognize that doesn't fit the standard and we look for what is causing the concerns.

I can't measure my life by Christ's because that is not a standard I can ever live up to, nor is it a walk I am supposed to repeat (I will never die on a cross to pay the price for anyone's sins, there is no need, and my sacrifice would be worthless).

Am I to be led by the Spirit, 100% YES, am I to seek to be more and more like Christ, 100% YES, Do I ever need to examine my life and see where I need improvement, 100% YES, we should all be doing that daily...so now what standard can I use to measure myself? The scriptures provide standards for living, and while the law no longer is a burden I bear, if I see things in my life that are contrary to His Word, then that is an area I need to seek to follow His Spirit more closely, and let Him lead me to improve those things.

Tithing is one of those standards. I can and do give cheerfully, and as the Lord prompts me, but I also know that I have bills to pay and often if I do not set aside a tithe FIRST, my check can be gone before I even know it. If I don't tithe, I can give cheerfully as much as possible, but it would be very little, because I don't carry cash on me, I don't carry a checkbook, I very seldom have money to spend or give. BUT I try to be faithful to give to God first.

In fact I used to live just as you are promoting, I gave as God led, any time God led, but I realized one day that I was giving very little, because I wasn't giving God the opportunity to lead, I realized that (contrary to what I had thought) I was giving no where near a tithe, but a pittance out of much that God had given me. I wasn't living extravagantly, or wasteful, but I wasn't honoring God either.

God's Standard of tithing showed me that, and I have been blessed as I have disciplined myself to follow that, I haven't always been perfect in it, and I don't believe God is going to send me to Hell or the Overseer pull my license or the Pastor kick me out, but I miss out in my relationship with God when I do not put him first (in all things not just tithes) and I thank God for providing a standard that I can hold myself accountable to, it has led me to be able to serve him more and be blessed by Him more.

[Full Quiver]

In fact I used to live just as you are promoting, I gave as God led, any time God led, but I realized one day that I was giving very little, because I wasn't giving God the opportunity to lead, I realized that (contrary to what I had thought) I was giving no where near a tithe, but a pittance out of much that God had given me. I wasn't living extravagantly, or wasteful, but I wasn't honoring God either.

What I am reading from you here Pastor Bill is that the Lord was leading you to give enough so you decided to start "tithing" in the spirit of the Jews in order to feel better.

Is it possible that you weren't listening to the prompting of the Lord and if you had been you would have been giving much more OR maybe you gave all that HE required but you condemned yourself.

[MacUser]

I guess the issue is that either you don't understand what I mean by a "standard" or you really feel that Christians don't need to live by any standards.

Pointing to Christ as our standard is great, in theory, but in practice it doesn't work, because none of us can measure up to Christ, Christ's life and walk aren't the same as what we are living in, nor is it supposed to be, there is not a need for another Savior (which is good, because no one is qualified to do it anyway).

And this gets to the root of the issue. Our amazing lack.

Christ came to restore the relationship to the Father. The body of Christ today doesn't know it's identity as Sons and Daughters. As a result we have a lack of confidence in the Father backing us 100%. A self consciousness that keeps us away/fear or inhibited from reigning in this glorious fact. The living standard is Christ by the indwelling of the Spirit.

We are so afraid that the Father will not do 100% what he says he will do in the Spirit... because WE DON'T KNOW HIM and whom we are as Sons and Daughters in restored relationship because of Christ. Establishing HIS kingdom which is a Kingdom of Light, TRUTH and LOVE!!

The goal of today's Christian Church isn't to make everybody RIGHT.. because Jesus did that on the CROSS for believers. Our goal as Children of God is to make everyone WHOLE - Restored. When we try to make everyone RIGHT.. you set yourself up as a standard of right and you make everyone like you and we have YET another religious ORDER SYSTEM ( IE; Law ). We don't need another split. Heaven help us.

We NEED the Revelation of the FATHER!!! Whoo Hooo!! And that God has provided EVERYTHING for you to REIGN in Life and walk in Righteousness! It's a 100% FREE Gift by receiving ONLY. Have you received it??

Romans 5:17
17 For if, by the trespass of the one, death reigned through the one; much more shall they that receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one, even Jesus Christ.

Jesus prayed this concerning the full revealing of the FATHER..

John 17
25"Righteous Father, though the world does not know you, I know you, and they know that you have sent me. 26. I have made you known to them, and will continue to make you known in order that the love you have for me may be in them and that I myself may be in them."

Can you receive this? I don't match up at all yet Christ gave all for me. It's FREE. It is possible for us to know His indwelling Love/Power! ZOWIE!!!

Whoo Hoooo... I am crucified with Christ!!! Not guided from any other shadow standard. Only BY FAITH in JESUS CHRIST ONLY.

The Holy Spirit's foundation purpose is to reveal the FATHER just as Jesus did. So why do we have more confidence in DEAD RULES than the Spirit of GOD!!! Let's teach how to HEAR the SPIRIT of GOD rather than Dead Rules because it's absolutely no way you can STUDY the old testament and get the Father. Jesus is the ONLY WAY.. TRUTH and LIFE!!!!!

I can go on and on and on.... but if you can't receive this core premise of this word.. we can't move onto the next Glorious revelation of the Father

Again.. this is all said in Love.. No offense intended.. but only revelation of the Father.

[Full Quiver]

This, to me, is the run of the mill Galatians letter from Paul. Why is it, how is it, that we start out so great in the Spirit and then resort back to the law? Why is it that we are walking in the Spirit being NT believers and then somehow we are bewitched and we fall back on the dead religion of the JEWS?

[lance82]

Pastor Bill, you wrote... "I guess the issue is that either you don't understand what I mean by a "standard" or you really feel that Christians don't need to live by any standards."

Response: Trust me, I understand what you are saying. I believe that Christians must live by standards. Standards set by Christ. To be Holy as He is Holy is the standard. To be a cheerful giver is the standard. To love others as self is the standard. To love God with everything about you is the standard. If you feel 10% is your number to make sure that you are meeting what the Spirit has led YOU to do, great. That doesn't mean that it is for everyone. For some, it may be 100% for others a mystery number that just goes out as opportunities arise.

You wrote..."Pointing to Christ as our standard is great, in theory, but in practice it doesn't work, because none of us can measure up to Christ, Christ's life and walk aren't the same as what we are living in, nor is it supposed to be, there is not a need for another Savior (which is good, because no one is qualified to do it anyway)."

Response: See BOLD type...How can you say that, when that is what HE told us to do? Yes, we can't measure up. That's whay we need grace and Holy Spirit's guidance us. When we do otherwise, we start living in the bondage of the law again.

You wrote, "A standard is something you can measure yourself against, hold yourself accountable to, gage your progress, etc. A child grows and we look for certain milestones, first words, first steps, etc. If a 5 year old still can't speak, we recognize that doesn't fit the standard and we look for what is causing the concerns."

Response: When we see Jesus, we see the standard. Galations 5:22
“But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control.”
Looks like standards to me.

You wrote, "I can't measure my life by Christ's because that is not a standard I can ever live up to, nor is it a walk I am supposed to repeat (I will never die on a cross to pay the price for anyone's sins, there is no need, and my sacrifice would be worthless)."

Response: Thus the need for grace. We can't do it the Smith Barney way.

You said, "Am I to be led by the Spirit, 100% YES, am I to seek to be more and more like Christ, 100% YES, Do I ever need to examine my life and see where I need improvement, 100% YES, we should all be doing that daily...so now what standard can I use to measure myself? The scriptures provide standards for living, and while the law no longer is a burden I bear, if I see things in my life that are contrary to His Word, then that is an area I need to seek to follow His Spirit more closely, and let Him lead me to improve those things."

Response: I agree 100%. BUT not everyone is bound by the same personal convictions. This is legalism.

You wrote, "Tithing is one of those standards. I can and do give cheerfully, and as the Lord prompts me, but I also know that I have bills to pay and often if I do not set aside a tithe FIRST, my check can be gone before I even know it. If I don't tithe, I can give cheerfully as much as possible, but it would be very little, because I don't carry cash on me, I don't carry a checkbook, I very seldom have money to spend or give. BUT I try to be faithful to give to God first."

Response: I differ only in that you are calling it a tithe, and teaching it as a 10% that people need to use as a standard. Sure it's a good principle. But that doesn't mean that everyone is required to do it... or even capable of doing it. Give whatever Holy Spirit leads you to give, just don't hold others to that level. Let them be led by Him also.

You wrote, "In fact I used to live just as you are promoting, I gave as God led, any time God led, but I realized one day that I was giving very little, because I wasn't giving God the opportunity to lead, I realized that (contrary to what I had thought) I was giving no where near a tithe, but a pittance out of much that God had given me. I wasn't living extravagantly, or wasteful, but I wasn't honoring God either. God's Standard of tithing showed me that, and I have been blessed as I have disciplined myself to follow that, I haven't always been perfect in it, and I don't believe God is going to send me to Hell or the Overseer pull my license or the Pastor kick me out, but I miss out in my relationship with God when I do not put him first (in all things not just tithes) and I thank God for providing a standard that I can hold myself accountable to, it has led me to be able to serve him more and be blessed by Him more."

Response: You gave as God led? How could that not have been enough to satisfy what God was requiring of you? It reads like you found a law to be more satisfying than cheerfully giving as God led. Maybe you don't mean that. BUT, that is what you wrote. How can you both give as he leads anytime he leads and not allow Him to lead at the same time? I'm confused . Again, if the Spirit led you to give 10%, it doesn't necessarily mean that this is the direction for everyone. If that was the case, every missionary to a far off land should be teaching everyone else that they need to do the same. Do you see my point?

Remember that the OT tithe was a lot different than 10% on income. And WAS NOT required of all people. I really believe that this is the direction that FQ was wanting this discussion to go. What were the tithing requirements in the OT? To whom were they required? What did Abraham tithe? What did Jacob tithe? When did tithing start as a post resurrection teaching? Can we tackle these????

[lance82]

Dawgs, you wrote, "that was a wonderful blessing and was an offering. (but not a tithe)"

Don't you see the legalistic, Pharisaical tone of this? How can you not read what you just posted and see that this is not the view of our Father. Jesus prepared a whip for the NT teachers who imposed un-Godly burdens on people! How dare us follow in their footsteps!!!

[Poimen]

that was a wonderful blessing and was an offering. (but not a tithe).

How do you know? It could've been a tenth of his and/or her income. Right?
Besides, so what if it wasn't? Maybe it was more. Maybe it was less. Regardless, it was given, and freely at that. That's all the NT requires.

Tithing can be a means and form of doing that, and is one I would encourage all able believers to use. But it's just another form of giving all the same. It is giving, giving freely according to one's means and/or the leading of the Spirit that the NT teaches. We need not add to, nor take from that.

[lance82]

Poimen,

Amen brother!!

[Poimen]

Pointing to Christ as our standard is great, in theory, but in practice it doesn't work, because none of us can measure up to Christ, Christ's life and walk aren't the same as what we are living in, nor is it supposed to be, there is not a need for another Savior (which is good, because no one is qualified to do it anyway).

Way to chunk one of the most fundamental and underlying principles of NT teaching (Christ-likeness) there Pastor Bill, not to mention several Scriptural injunctions that uphold just the opposite of your comments.

[Pastor Bill]

In fact I used to live just as you are promoting, I gave as God led, any time God led, but I realized one day that I was giving very little, because I wasn't giving God the opportunity to lead, I realized that (contrary to what I had thought) I was giving no where near a tithe, but a pittance out of much that God had given me. I wasn't living extravagantly, or wasteful, but I wasn't honoring God either.

What I am reading from you here Pastor Bill is that the Lord was leading you to give enough so you decided to start "tithing" in the spirit of the Jews in order to feel better.

Is it possible that you weren't listening to the prompting of the Lord and if you had been you would have been giving much more OR maybe you gave all that HE required but you condemned yourself.

I was struggling in my finances, over my head in debt, and had all the excuses, feeling I was giving all I could, but not really seeking God in it either. When an opportunity to give would come up, I would pray and give what I had to give, but since I never had much, I never gave much, but felt I was doing good to do that. Till God convicted me on it, and led me to take a harder look at what I was doing. I realized that I was not putting God first, and had allowed greed to creep in, I was still following God in other areas of my life, and I was trying to live for God, but I was failing in this area and was pushing the leading away with justifications that I didn't have any more I could give.

Putting that Standard in front of me, God taught me to put Him first, and to seek Him first, then I was able to hear His leading more in my finances, and I can say today I am debt free (paid the last payment on my truck yesterday), Was God cursing my finances before, no, but my unfaithfulness was preventing me from giving God the control to bless me. When I began to put God first, HE was able to to lead me in ways that I had not seen before.

[Pastor Bill]

Poimen,

Amen brother!!

So why is it when I have said that same thing you disagree?

Tithing is giving cheerfully, (or it should be) it is simply a standard we can use to teach that, and to hold ourselves accountable in doing that.

[Pastor Bill]

Poimen,

Amen brother!!

So why is it when I have said that same thing you disagree?

Tithing is giving cheerfully, (or it should be) it is simply a standard we can use to teach that, and to hold ourselves accountable in doing that.