tithing

[dawgs10]

Pastor Bill, your remarks about your friend funding his ministry with his tithe not being right or of the Lord is so judgmental & condemning. Maybe you preaching in a pulpit is your "hobby" yet you expect others to fund it. WOW!

Maybe it's because we leave in a capitalist society but most people expect something for their money. If a ministry does not produce fruit then it doesn't deserve funding whether by an OT tithe, a NT tithe, or cheerful giving. We are asked, expected, and demanded to give when there are no results or before there are results.

Many points have been proven over these 13 or 14 pages.

sorry, i dont know that there has been many points "proven" or not. alot of wiggling around rather than being obedient to the word of God. The Church, the way God has chosen to work in this world. but ok.

[Full Quiver]

I'm sorry dawgs that you don't understand that the law was nailed to the cross, that it was ONLY a schoolmaster to bring the JEWS to Christ, and that once there the JEWS should walk in the Spirit and thus no longer the law. Also that the Gentiles are to walk in the Spirit and we should have NEVER come into contact with the law.

I don't fault you for I spent many years in that rut, that miry clay, BUT God set me free to worship HIM in spirit & truth. I do have a question for you though. I think I already asked but you didn't respond that I saw.

Does your wife, I assume your married, separate herself from everyone during her time of the month? I ask because there is NO NT LANGUAGE that says that was to end EXCEPT what I have pointed out that you disagree with. Peter did not have a vision of menstruating women sitting alongside everyone else in the church house!

[dawgs10]

I'm sorry dawgs that you don't understand that the law was nailed to the cross, that it was ONLY a schoolmaster to bring the JEWS to Christ, and that once there the JEWS should walk in the Spirit and thus no longer the law. Also that the Gentiles are to walk in the Spirit and we should have NEVER come into contact with the law.

I don't fault you for I spent many years in that rut, that miry clay, BUT God set me free to worship HIM in spirit & truth. I do have a question for you though. I think I already asked but you didn't respond that I saw.

Does your wife, I assume your married, separate herself from everyone during her time of the month? I ask because there is NO NT LANGUAGE that says that was to end EXCEPT what I have pointed out that you disagree with. Peter did not have a vision of menstruating women sitting alongside everyone else in the church house!

my point over the last 14 pages has not changed. if Jesus takes the time in a teaching point to say something is good or right then it is good and right. the NT does not have to say something is suppose to end. we know we are not subject to the law unless Christ, (the one that died on that cross the law is nailed to says other wise.) with this subject Christ said it is good and right with the right attitude. no wiggle room. it does not matter who he was talking to because he did not say its good or right for some. he said its good or right. so to use other things that was not even mentioned in the NT as an example of this teaching to be outdated is not a good angle for ya.

[Pastor Bill]

4.If indeed you felt tithing was just a good practice and not required, you wouldn't call it a principle or a standard. That is what makes it LAW. You have waffled back and forth on this. How can you not call it sin, but call it a requirement on the same level as marital faithfulness. Come on, brother, it can't be both ways!!!

As I said earlier, I was done with this discussion, because you don't want to hear anything other than agreement, but in this last one you are very much twisting my words.

WHERE did I call it a sin or a requirement on the same level as marital faithfulness?

I pointed out that yes there are standards that we should live by, and I used those as more extreme examples, I did not elevate this to that level.

I was simply making the point that while we are free from sin, there are still standards in His Word that apply to our lives, and if someone said the spirit was leading them against these standards we would question it. Do you agree? (a simple yes or no would be nice)

[Pastor Bill]

I am not trying to be judgemental, I was simply giving an example of how sometimes we twist things to meet what we want rather than the intent of what God is leading.

I do not sit in judgement over him, I leave that between him and God, but I do feel that we need to be careful to follow God, not twist what He is saying into what we want to hear or do.

[lance82]

my point over the last 14 pages has not changed. if Jesus takes the time in a teaching point to say something is good or right then it is good and right. the NT does not have to say something is suppose to end. we know we are not subject to the law unless Christ, (the one that died on that cross the law is nailed to says other wise.) with this subject Christ said it is good and right with the right attitude. no wiggle room. it does not matter who he was talking to because he did not say its good or right for some. he said its good or right. so to use other things that was not even mentioned in the NT as an example of this teaching to be outdated is not a good angle for ya.

Dawgs10,
As usual... avoiding the question.

Okay, let's start fresh...
1. Where does Jesus say that tithing is "good" and/or "right"?
2. If Jesus taught tithing, to whom did he teach it?

[lance82]

As I said earlier, I was done with this discussion, because you don't want to hear anything other than agreement, but in this last one you are very much twisting my words.

I don't just want agreement. I want you to back up what you are doing with NT scripture. That is all. If you can show me different, I'll submit.

WHERE did I call it a sin or a requirement on the same level as marital faithfulness?

You wrote earlier, "SO if I say it's OK for me to commit adultery as long as I feel God is leading me to it, I'm not bound under the law that claims that is wrong? OR does the Spirit and His Standards of Right and Wrong work together in that the Holy Spirit would not lead you to go against those standards? It seems convenient that you pick and choose which standards seem to have disappeared and which ones you would still question what "spirit" was leading."
To me you are lumping them all together on the same level here. If I misread you, I am sorry.

I was simply making the point that while we are free from sin, there are still standards in His Word that apply to our lives, and if someone said the spirit was leading them against these standards we would question it. Do you agree? (a simple yes or no would be nice)

Yes, I agree as I said before, to a point. The NT teachings are very clear regarding the 10 commandments and teachings of love. Silent regarding tithing. Clear on not being burdened regarding the observance of the LAW, under which Gentiles never were anyway.

Brother, I am not doubting your love or commitment to God. I do not doubt that you are a cheerful giver who sacrifices to meet needs when you see them. I am just convinced that it is not our place to place burdens on others that keep them from seeing God's full on Grace. Regardless of what we individually are led to do with our money. I believe that it is tradition that leads us to teach tithing.

I have asked allot of questions, and noone seems to want to take them on. If I am soooooooo wrong, please someone, show me scriptures. Dawgs10, I'm not talking about your twisted analogy of Jesus' words when rebuking the Pharisees. If no one is willing to do that then I am left to believe what I feel Holy Spirit is telling me.

[Full Quiver]

For all intents & purposes Jesus should have been the last JEW ever because all others should have called out to HIM as their Messiah.

In God's eyes Jesus was the last JEW. HE fulfilled the law and that was that.

Jesus picked and ate corn on the Sabbath. DO YOU!?!

[scooter]

For all intents & purposes Jesus should have been the last JEW ever because all others should have called out to HIM as their Messiah.

In God's eyes Jesus was the last JEW. HE fulfilled the law and that was that.

Jesus picked and ate corn on the Sabbath. DO YOU!?!

Response: So he sinned according to the law???, or the law was never ended to be so exaggerated?

I dropped out of this for a bit because I don't agree with a couple of the ways tithing was being defended or a couple of twist the thread had taken.

However no one is talking about being a jew but jew(you).

There are basic principles which were contained (in the law) which YOU still keep, do or don't do. You don't do that because you want to be a better jew. You do that because it is right.

If you want to teach liberty to freely give PTL just don't use grace as a way to be financially unfaithful.

[dolfan]

For all intents & purposes Jesus should have been the last JEW ever because all others should have called out to HIM as their Messiah.

In God's eyes Jesus was the last JEW. HE fulfilled the law and that was that.

Jesus picked and ate corn on the Sabbath. DO YOU!?!

I'm not even sure how to respond to that.

You do understand that "Jews", historically, are simply people from the Judah province, and then later understood as Jacob's descendants generally. So, you are arguing that Jesus was/should've been the last descendant of ..... who? I'm not getting you at all.

Then you say, "In God's eyes, Jesus was the last JEW. HE fulfilled the law and that was that." Let's assume --- and honestly, the notion you've expressed sounds completely spaced-out to me and maybe I'm the one in error here, so please don't take me the wrong way because I'm really trying to understand --- but, let's assume Jesus, king of the Jews, is "in God's eyes" king of a bunch of now-deceased people who descended from Judah, Benjamin, Simeon and Levi. In my blind grasp to get hold of what you're saying, what I'm taking away from it is that all of what God said and did in the OT died with them, or at least should've, and that now ....... Jesus is the king of a bunch of Gentile believers in Him (the king of dead Jews) and .... oh forget it.

This is a brain-fryer.

[Pastor Bill]

As I said earlier, I was done with this discussion, because you don't want to hear anything other than agreement, but in this last one you are very much twisting my words.

I don't just want agreement. I want you to back up what you are doing with NT scripture. That is all. If you can show me different, I'll submit.

Which has been done over and over.

WHERE did I call it a sin or a requirement on the same level as marital faithfulness?

You wrote earlier, "SO if I say it's OK for me to commit adultery as long as I feel God is leading me to it, I'm not bound under the law that claims that is wrong? OR does the Spirit and His Standards of Right and Wrong work together in that the Holy Spirit would not lead you to go against those standards? It seems convenient that you pick and choose which standards seem to have disappeared and which ones you would still question what "spirit" was leading."
To me you are lumping them all together on the same level here. If I misread you, I am sorry.

No, I am simply stating that there are standards, not lumping them with the same importance or severity, again you have not answered whether or not you recognize these standards or not.

I was simply making the point that while we are free from sin, there are still standards in His Word that apply to our lives, and if someone said the spirit was leading them against these standards we would question it. Do you agree? (a simple yes or no would be nice)

Yes, I agree as I said before, to a point. The NT teachings are very clear regarding the 10 commandments and teachings of love. Silent regarding tithing. Clear on not being burdened regarding the observance of the LAW, under which Gentiles never were anyway.

So you agree there are standards, then how do you pick and choose which standards to keep? it has been suggested by others those that are acknowledged or referred to in NT scripture, but you reject Christ's referral to tithing? So whose is it to pick and choose?

I agree we are no longer under the law, but that there are still standards that the Holy Spirit does not contradict, I have seen tithing to be one of them, and while I do not put people under a burden (as you frequently like to accuse me of) I do recommend this as a biblical standard of giving that is appropriate and gives a solid foundation for cheerful giving.

I have never thrown someone out of the church over it, limited their ministry or membership activity in the church in any way, but I do teach it as something we should do, and that putting God first in our finances will always be blessed.

Brother, I am not doubting your love or commitment to God. I do not doubt that you are a cheerful giver who sacrifices to meet needs when you see them. I am just convinced that it is not our place to place burdens on others that keep them from seeing God's full on Grace. Regardless of what we individually are led to do with our money. I believe that it is tradition that leads us to teach tithing.

You are convinced that we are all putting people under burdens and turning them away from God, you've stated that many times, and frankly if that is true, then how could it be said that we are committed to God or following Him, since that is contradictory?

You are convinced that you are right, and that anyone who disagrees is pushing people away and putting them under bondage of the law. I am trying to explain to you that is not an accurate accusation. If you feel that without paying attention to tithing you are still giving and serving as God leads, then great, and if you are right in that, I'd say God will handle the specifics of it, and as long as you let Him lead, and tithing won't be an issue. But to say that tithing is inappropriate or goes against Christ's teachings cannot be supported by scripture, you have been shown instances where Christ referenced the tithe, and called it good. Since it is not a burden or law, but only a guiding principle for giving (or standard) those that are following this are not under a bondage, but are relying on a biblical guideline to hold themselves accountable as they follow His Spirit. The only way this could be a problem is if His Spirit is leading contrary to His Word, and I don't see that being an issue.

I have asked allot of questions, and noone seems to want to take them on. If I am soooooooo wrong, please someone, show me scriptures. Dawgs10, I'm not talking about your twisted analogy of Jesus' words when rebuking the Pharisees. If no one is willing to do that then I am left to believe what I feel Holy Spirit is telling me.

we have 15 pages of people taking the questions on, you just won't accept anyone's answers.

[lance82]

Which has been done over and over

Where?

No, I am simply stating that there are standards, not lumping them with the same importance or severity, again you have not answered whether or not you recognize these standards or not.

Sure I did. This is what I posted earlier. Looks pretty straight forward as an answer to me. I said...

Yes, I agree as I said before, to a point. The NT teachings are very clear regarding the 10 commandments and teachings of love. Silent regarding tithing.

You wrote...

So you agree there are standards, then how do you pick and choose which standards to keep? it has been suggested by others those that are acknowledged or referred to in NT scripture, but you reject Christ's referral to tithing? So whose is it to pick and choose?

You use Christ's referral to tithing out of context. He was talking to people who were under the Law. He had not yet set them free from it.
Christ's to pick and choose. You ask me this, yet you yourself pick and choose what part of the Law you should keep and preach. example....

I agree we are no longer under the law, but that there are still standards that the Holy Spirit does not contradict, I have seen tithing to be one of them

,

and while I do not put people under a burden (as you frequently like to accuse me of) I do recommend this as a biblical standard of giving that is appropriate and gives a solid foundation for cheerful giving.

If you feel that without paying attention to tithing you are still giving and serving as God leads, then great, and if you are right in that, I'd say God will handle the specifics of it, and as long as you let Him lead, and tithing won't be an issue. But to say that tithing is inappropriate or goes against Christ's teachings cannot be supported by scripture, you have been shown instances where Christ referenced the tithe, and called it good. Since it is not a burden or law, but only a guiding principle for giving (or standard) those that are following this are not under a bondage, but are relying on a biblical guideline to hold themselves accountable as they follow His Spirit. The only way this could be a problem is if His Spirit is leading contrary to His Word, and I don't see that being an issue.

The danger here is that you just said... "

If you feel that without paying attention to tithing you are still giving and serving as God leads, then great, and if you are right in that, I'd say God will handle the specifics of it, and as long as you let Him lead, and tithing won't be an issue."

If it is "not an issue" then it should not be taught as if it is. There is more harm done in teaching it than in not.

A solid foundation for cheerful giving

? More like a solid foundation for a yoke. that shouldn't exist. If you are imposing a weight on someone that Christ did not, then you are placing a burden on them.

Don’t you see that there is a difference in teaching someone that they should avoid eating too much cholesterol and teaching that they must abstain from all foods that contain cholesterol? This implies that all cholestrol is bad. You said that people aren’t really giving to God until they get over 10%. That implies that the 10% is a must and nothing less will do. Did I misinterpret you on this? I know I didn’t get dawgs10 wrong.

I have never thrown someone out of the church over it, limited their ministry or membership activity in the church in any way,

Praise the Lord. But how many have been turned off to Christ because you

teach it as something we should do

, when Christ himself did not.

putting God first in our finances will always be blessed

Amen!!! I whole heartedly agree, as long as it is done cheerfully, with-holding nothing that the Spirit has directed.

You are convinced that we are all putting people under burdens and turning them away from God, you've stated that many times, and frankly if that is true, then how could it be said that we are committed to God or following Him, since that is contradictory?

Some people are sincerely wrong. Just as I stated before regarding people removing jewelry in the altar. I believe that the Apostle Paul was truly trying his best to serve God prior to his true conversion on the road to Damascus... but he was sincerely wrong.

You are convinced that you are right, and that anyone who disagrees is pushing people away and putting them under bondage of the law. I am trying to explain to you that is not an accurate accusation.

As long as you teach something as a NT requirement when it is not, you are. Whether it is intentional or not. Prove to me scripturally that I am wrong. I am convinced that the scriptures I have posted are right. If I am the one that is sincerely wrong, help me find the light.

I have asked allot of questions, and noone seems to want to take them on. If I am soooooooo wrong, please someone, show me scriptures. Dawgs10, I'm not talking about your twisted analogy of Jesus' words when rebuking the Pharisees. If no one is willing to do that then I am left to believe what I feel Holy Spirit is telling me.[/quote]

we have 15 pages of people taking the questions on, you just won't accept anyone's answers.

[/quote]
Where? The only one I refuse is the references by Jesus that are used out of context as stated above. I think that is about all I have gotten so far!!!

So, these are my questions…
1. We have been taught for so long that tithing is the way, that we believe that there must be some standard taught. Where does the NT even say that?
2. Show me Biblical examples of NT or OT requirements for tithing on ones income aside from the tithing of food.
3. Why do we get legalistic about money and not time management, prayer time, personal evangelism...?
4. What if we called on the people to meet needs, instead of tithing? Don't you think God knows what the needs are and is able to motivate His people to get them covered?
5. The tithes required in the OT were various and never included cash income that I can find. Even when Jesus addressed the Pharisees, He was referring to only the foods tithe as they were required by the Law of Moses. The food tithe ended up being closer to 23 % annually than just the 10% we teach today. I cannot find anywhere where people gaining their income from anything other than the production of food are required to tithe anything; and those producing foods were required to tithe the food, not money, or pay an added penalty for doing so. Why aren't we teaching this?
6. What were the tithing requirements in the OT? To whom were they required? What did Abraham tithe? What did Jacob tithe? When did tithing start as a post resurrection teaching?
7. Regarding your friend who started a Gospel singing group - Do you know this was a hobby? How do you know that he wasn't led of the Lord to do it?
Where are my answers?

[Pastor Bill]

Frankly, I'm tired of repeating myself just to have it ignored, so I'm only going to respond to the last questions, as the rest we've been over too many times already.

So, these are my questions…
1. We have been taught for so long that tithing is the way, that we believe that there must be some standard taught. Where does the NT even say that?

Where does it state that there are no standards? You ignore the fact that Christ mentioned tithing and called it good (because he was talking to people under the law but then again, weren't they all under the law at that time? Who else was he supposed to talk to? Christ saw this standard and called it good, where is there anything to say different?

2. Show me Biblical examples of NT or OT requirements for tithing on ones income aside from the tithing of food.

been there done that, you are just casting it off as under the law. No one here is even calling this a requirement, but a good standard or guide.

3. Why do we get legalistic about money and not time management, prayer time, personal evangelism...?

Well since our main point is that we ARE NOT getting legalistic about this, that's a hard one to answer, other than the fact I can guarantee you I preach way more about time management, prayer time and personal evangelism than I ever have tithing.

4. What if we called on the people to meet needs, instead of tithing? Don't you think God knows what the needs are and is able to motivate His people to get them covered?

Who says we are not? This is where the bulk of tithes go anyway, and we promote this more frequently than tithing.

5. The tithes required in the OT were various and never included cash income that I can find. Even when Jesus addressed the Pharisees, He was referring to only the foods tithe as they were required by the Law of Moses. The food tithe ended up being closer to 23 % annually than just the 10% we teach today. I cannot find anywhere where people gaining their income from anything other than the production of food are required to tithe anything; and those producing foods were required to tithe the food, not money, or pay an added penalty for doing so. Why aren't we teaching this?

Because very few of us live in the same economy they did at that time. I don't receive food as payment or as the results of my work, I receive money. As for giving of my food, if you've ever been at my home any time close to a meal, you know there is food enough for everyone, and we freely share.

6. What were the tithing requirements in the OT? To whom were they required? What did Abraham tithe? What did Jacob tithe? When did tithing start as a post resurrection teaching?

The concept began early of giving to God of the first fruits, all the way back to Cain and Able, there are different teachings and methods listed throughout the old testament, Since we are not being legalistic about it and are promoting it only as a guideline then I don't see this as being as important.

7. Regarding your friend who started a Gospel singing group - Do you know this was a hobby? How do you know that he wasn't led of the Lord to do it?

As I said, I was not trying to be judgemental about it, and I was speaking in response to a comment made about tithing being not only about what was given, but where it was given. I would rather not drag that situation out, but yes I do believe that at times people twist things to meet their own desires and call it conforming to the Word of God, you have mentioned preachers pushing tithing to meet a budget, how do you know they were not led of God to teach these things and it was coming from such selfish motives? I think those situations occur on both sides, and I don't think they really will enhance this discussion, so let's just drop them, on both sides.

You also made another comment which I will address as well.

The danger here is that you just said... "

If you feel that without paying attention to tithing you are still giving and serving as God leads, then great, and if you are right in that, I'd say God will handle the specifics of it, and as long as you let Him lead, and tithing won't be an issue.

If it is "not an issue" then it should not be taught as if it is. There is more harm done in teaching it than in not.

And here is where I would disagree. If God is leading you to give, and you are giving the same (or more) as you would if you were following the standard of tithing, then basically you are tithing as led by God, and if you are giving less or in a different way, then let God lead you differently, it's no difference to me, BUT I didn't say that giving isn't an issue. When you teach someone that tithing is a standard of giving, it gives them a structure they can apply to their budgeting, If they accept that teaching and learn to give freely from it, they can give cheerfully and fulfill what the Word says to do. BUT I know many who struggle financially, they give very sparingly, and don't really seek God in that area of their lives. If asked, they believe they are cheerful givers, but honestly it is not seen in their life or their attitude. I don't believe nor have I ever treated them any differently, but in teaching tithing, I have seen some realize that the amount of their giving comes nowhere close, and through that God has led them to seek Him in their finances, leading them to financial freedom to give and give cheerfully. I have also seen people in the same situation embrace the message you are preaching and justify their unfaithfulness by claiming freedom from having to give.

I don't teach tithing to increase what comes into the church, I teach tithing to give God's people an understanding that God can do much more than they think, and challenging them to meet that standard opens their eyes to His faithfulness to see them through even when by their fears they did not feel they could afford to tithe.

I'm not teaching tithing as a burden, but I'm teaching it as a freedom from the financial burdens of this world. Maybe it's the fact that I live and minister in very poor communities and I have seen more bound up in these problems than the legalism you seem to feel runs rampant in my teaching, I'm not a legalistic person, and I have never been in my ministry.

[dawgs10]

Frankly, I'm tired of repeating myself just to have it ignored, so I'm only going to respond to the last questions, as the rest we've been over too many times already.

So, these are my questions…
1. We have been taught for so long that tithing is the way, that we believe that there must be some standard taught. Where does the NT even say that?

Where does it state that there are no standards? You ignore the fact that Christ mentioned tithing and called it good (because he was talking to people under the law but then again, weren't they all under the law at that time? Who else was he supposed to talk to? Christ saw this standard and called it good, where is there anything to say different?

2. Show me Biblical examples of NT or OT requirements for tithing on ones income aside from the tithing of food.

been there done that, you are just casting it off as under the law. No one here is even calling this a requirement, but a good standard or guide.

3. Why do we get legalistic about money and not time management, prayer time, personal evangelism...?

Well since our main point is that we ARE NOT getting legalistic about this, that's a hard one to answer, other than the fact I can guarantee you I preach way more about time management, prayer time and personal evangelism than I ever have tithing.

4. What if we called on the people to meet needs, instead of tithing? Don't you think God knows what the needs are and is able to motivate His people to get them covered?

Who says we are not? This is where the bulk of tithes go anyway, and we promote this more frequently than tithing.

5. The tithes required in the OT were various and never included cash income that I can find. Even when Jesus addressed the Pharisees, He was referring to only the foods tithe as they were required by the Law of Moses. The food tithe ended up being closer to 23 % annually than just the 10% we teach today. I cannot find anywhere where people gaining their income from anything other than the production of food are required to tithe anything; and those producing foods were required to tithe the food, not money, or pay an added penalty for doing so. Why aren't we teaching this?

Because very few of us live in the same economy they did at that time. I don't receive food as payment or as the results of my work, I receive money. As for giving of my food, if you've ever been at my home any time close to a meal, you know there is food enough for everyone, and we freely share.

6. What were the tithing requirements in the OT? To whom were they required? What did Abraham tithe? What did Jacob tithe? When did tithing start as a post resurrection teaching?

The concept began early of giving to God of the first fruits, all the way back to Cain and Able, there are different teachings and methods listed throughout the old testament, Since we are not being legalistic about it and are promoting it only as a guideline then I don't see this as being as important.

7. Regarding your friend who started a Gospel singing group - Do you know this was a hobby? How do you know that he wasn't led of the Lord to do it?

As I said, I was not trying to be judgemental about it, and I was speaking in response to a comment made about tithing being not only about what was given, but where it was given. I would rather not drag that situation out, but yes I do believe that at times people twist things to meet their own desires and call it conforming to the Word of God, you have mentioned preachers pushing tithing to meet a budget, how do you know they were not led of God to teach these things and it was coming from such selfish motives? I think those situations occur on both sides, and I don't think they really will enhance this discussion, so let's just drop them, on both sides.

You also made another comment which I will address as well.

The danger here is that you just said... "

If you feel that without paying attention to tithing you are still giving and serving as God leads, then great, and if you are right in that, I'd say God will handle the specifics of it, and as long as you let Him lead, and tithing won't be an issue.

If it is "not an issue" then it should not be taught as if it is. There is more harm done in teaching it than in not.

And here is where I would disagree. If God is leading you to give, and you are giving the same (or more) as you would if you were following the standard of tithing, then basically you are tithing as led by God, and if you are giving less or in a different way, then let God lead you differently, it's no difference to me, BUT I didn't say that giving isn't an issue. When you teach someone that tithing is a standard of giving, it gives them a structure they can apply to their budgeting, If they accept that teaching and learn to give freely from it, they can give cheerfully and fulfill what the Word says to do. BUT I know many who struggle financially, they give very sparingly, and don't really seek God in that area of their lives. If asked, they believe they are cheerful givers, but honestly it is not seen in their life or their attitude. I don't believe nor have I ever treated them any differently, but in teaching tithing, I have seen some realize that the amount of their giving comes nowhere close, and through that God has led them to seek Him in their finances, leading them to financial freedom to give and give cheerfully. I have also seen people in the same situation embrace the message you are preaching and justify their unfaithfulness by claiming freedom from having to give.

I don't teach tithing to increase what comes into the church, I teach tithing to give God's people an understanding that God can do much more than they think, and challenging them to meet that standard opens their eyes to His faithfulness to see them through even when by their fears they did not feel they could afford to tithe.

I'm not teaching tithing as a burden, but I'm teaching it as a freedom from the financial burdens of this world. Maybe it's the fact that I live and minister in very poor communities and I have seen more bound up in these problems than the legalism you seem to feel runs rampant in my teaching, I'm not a legalistic person, and I have never been in my ministry.

pastor bill answered all of your questions. end of discussion. its a new testament teaching. just give it up and make sure you give your tithe to the store house in the morning and if you want to give to anything else great. thats an offering.

[MacUser]

Behold the Lamb!

Zowie.. I can't understate this. It's FANTASTIC


Hummmm.. I need to change my signature.. hehe