tithing

[dawgs10]

teaching what Jesus taught. ok then. mat. 23:23 NLT How terrible it will be for you teachers of religious law and you Pharisees. Hypocrites! For you are careful to tithe even the tiniest part of your income, but you ignore the important things of the law-justice, mercy, and faith. You should tithe, yes, but you should not leave undone the more important things. What did Jesus say? you should tithe. you should tithe. you should tithe. you should tithe. you should tithe. while observing justice, mercy, and faith!!!!!! what did Jesus say. YOU SHOULD TITHE. YOU SHOULD TITHE. YOU SHOULD TITHE. WHILE OBERVING JUSTICE, MERCY, AND FAITH. WHAT DID HE SAY? YOU SHOULD TITHE. YOU SHOULD TITHE. YOU SHOULD TITHE. while observing justice, mercy, and faith.

Response: The thing is it is too easy to say there are many things that Jesus could have said they "should have been doing" that they no longer do under the new covenant.

They should have been "insert your OT command here".

Under the law there are many things they should have been doing.

Just trying to help.

that seems to be way off. if Jesus says you should. what does that tell us? this has been of of the longest threads i remember in sometime. why? its about peoples wallet. the last land of obedience. the last strong hold of satan. money. wow. its not easy, its simple.

[Pastor Bill]

Cool Rambo, so please tell us how that God would lead you to do such a thing when the Scripture declares, according to some here, that would be robbing God. This should add to the discussion for sure.

How would this be robbing God, I noticed your pastor (in your quote) specifically said tithes and offerings, we are to bring those into the storehouse, which the congregation did. How the church is lead to use those funds depends on the needs, and the ministries going forth. In this instance the ministry was sending out workers into the field to bless and provide. I don't see this as a contradiction at all, but is actually the work we are supposed to be doing. Now the only robbing God would be those that stick the money back in their pocket and don't follow through on the work, and yes then they would be taking from God, because what they were led (by the spirit and by the Word) to give is God's, and they are to use it as HE leads just as their pastor instructed.

[scooter]

that seems to be way off. if Jesus says you should. what does that tell us? this has been of of the longest threads i remember in sometime. why? its about peoples wallet. the last land of obedience. the last strong hold of satan. money. wow. its not easy, its simple.

Response: I'm just saying that a Pharisee would be, should have been doing all of the things contained in the law including tithing, so Jesus would have no problem saying you should have been tithing but you should have been loving also.

That doesn't equate to a NT command that everyone should continue tithing, though I tithe for other reasons.

So I'm not worried about money but I know you are right in that some are.

[dawgs10]

that seems to be way off. if Jesus says you should. what does that tell us? this has been of of the longest threads i remember in sometime. why? its about peoples wallet. the last land of obedience. the last strong hold of satan. money. wow. its not easy, its simple.

Response: I'm just saying that a Pharisee would be, should have been doing all of the things contained in the law including tithing, so Jesus would have no problem saying you should have been tithing but you should have been loving also.

That doesn't equate to a NT command that everyone should continue tithing, though I tithe for other reasons.

So I'm not worried about money but I know you are right in that some are.

scooter i have looked at matt. 23 so many times. the fact is Christ did not come to do away with the law. he came to full fill it. so my point is this. Christ has the right to keep what he wanted to keep from the law. when he said something should be done thats what he meant. thats all i have been saying for the past couple of weeks.

[MacUser]

Mac, I would only pipe in here to say this.....I fear the Father. I do.

I have fright at the prospects of disobedience. If that's manipulation, blame Him, not me. Well, you don't have to do that, though because the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom. While perfect love casts out fear, and because fear is about punishment and not about love, there is a point where fear is a carrier from immaturity to maturity. Fear serves a purpose.

Again pure confusion.. in all sincerity from indoctrination.. it's confusion/manipulation/setting up standards with Love when you do this... Your OT Fear is related to Judgement as you mentioned. God has now justified you if you are in Christ. I highlight the confusion of the covenants here. Jesus came to complete/remove with the old model of Fear and bring in the new model of LOVE.. Do you grasp that? If you can't settle that core fact.. you will always be manipulated. Let me show you here this first step to absorb... especially 22 for you.

Hebrews 10
9 then hath he said, Lo, I am come to do thy will. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

10 By which will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

.. 14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

.. 18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holy place by the blood of Jesus,

22 let us draw near with a true heart in fulness of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience: and having our body washed with pure water,

39 But we are not of them that shrink back unto perdition; but of them that have faith unto the saving of the soul.

I admit that I am not "perfect" as in 1 John 4:18 "perfect". I want to be. I don't believe I'm one who is consciously guilty of hating my brothers and sisters as John continues in the following verses. I want to carry out His commandments; and, by doing so and by loving God, I know that I love others and do not hate them, and need not stand in "fear" of God for punishment of that particular wrong.

1 John 4:18 ASV

18 There is no fear in love: but perfect love casteth out fear, because fear hath punishment; and he that feareth is not made perfect in love.

Ohhh Brother... You have a head knowledge of it... as you try to legalistically defer my points, scriptures and direct quotes.. but you don't have a working/application LOVE knowledge of it - Not made PERFECT in Love. Revelation will do you no good only in your head.. if you don't apply it. People often say flippantly.." I know GOD loves me.." Really? Do you really know the depths of love in which he purchased you and justified you? Or are you just saying that? I could write paragraphs here about how much he loves you and how Good He is. That is HIS GLORY!!! WHOO HOOO.. But that for later... let's take tiny steps today. LOL.

But, as the writer of Ecclesiastes wrote, "Let us hear the conclusion of the matter. Fear God and keep His commandments." There is a right and proper element of fear. I need to remember the awesomeness and perfection of the One whom I serve. That keeps me from being childish and helps me to go on to maturity.

Perfect LOVE.. casts out 50% of Fear? On a good day.. 80% of Fear? In a Church shouting service... 90% of fear? Na brother.. it casts out ALL FEAR... that is tough GREEK word to interpret.

Original Greek = ALL
English = ALL

John 5:24 (NIV)
24 “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

Man.. this Jesus Guy is awesome!! Freaking Wonderful. He put that FEAR card to rest for good for those in Him. Can we accept Him and HIS WORD? My savior, my God... I love you so..

Behold the LAMB!!!

( TO keep on topic: You WILL give because you were FIRST Given to. You can give because you know a PRECIOUS GIFT that was given to you. You Love because you were first loved. )

[scooter]

Man.. this Jesus Guy is awesome!! Freaking Wonderful. )

Response: This really tells all one needs to know about your theology.

A Christian with no limits because of grace.

You've overdosed on grace.

It's a simple case of new age NT perversions just like any other twisting of the scripture.

When your theology negates portions of the NT. It is your understanding that is off.

James 1:26 If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion [is] vain.

Romans 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, [take heed] lest he also spare not thee.

When your theology removes the need for heed it is simply false doctrine, but hey the Baptist love it.

1 Corinthians 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring [it] into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

Why there is no fear in love right? Why be concerned about lifestyle?

2 Corinthians 5:14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: And [that] he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

Constraints in the perfect love of God? Why?

Hebrews 10:31 [It is] a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Hebrews 10:23 Let us hold fast the profession of [our] faith without wavering; (for he [is] faithful that promised;)

Hebrews 10:24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:

Hebrews 10:25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some [is]; but exhorting [one another]: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

Hebrews 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.


Hebrews 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Hebrews 10:30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance [belongeth] unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.


Hebrews 12:15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble [you], and thereby many be defiled;

Why is there any need for that?

Fail of the grace of God? What does that exactly mean? What's that the baptist didn't have any answer? No doubt.

When you have to discount the Word to believe your understanding of the word we have issues.

[dolfan]

Mac --

Well, you've put me on a defensive that I really don't want. I almost feel like whatever I say is going to be defensive, but to square that off, I don't mean this to be defensive or legalistic. If I'm wrong somehow, I trust God to show even that to me. So, with that, here goes:

The NT consistently reveals that fear is a proper motivator for believers.

Hebrews 12:28 "serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear" (also translated as "awe", stemming from Gr. word meaning caution, reverence, dread (as in of consequences of wrongdoing).

Philippians 2:12 "work out your own salvation [in Paul's absence] with fear and trembling", from Gr. word "phobos" meaning fear/dread/terror.

Ephesians 6:5 commands servants to be obedient to their natural masters "with fear and trembling in singleness of your heart as unto Christ." Also, same word "phobos".

2 Timothy 1:7, where Paul instructs that God has not given us a "spirit of fear" comes from the word meaning timidity and cowardice, the opposite of bold confidence. This is not a lesson of fearlessness toward God, but confidence in God. It is the same sort of fear mentioned in Heb. 13:6 where the writer admonishes believers to say that the Lord is our helper and that we will not fear what man may do to us.

1 Peter 1:17, "If you call on the Father, ....., pass the time of your sojourning here in fear." (Phobos).

So, again, it is not that I do not know that God loves me. Really, really know it. I know it as well as I know I love my own daughter. And, she doesn't have to do anything to be loved as my child. She's mine. Well, I'm His. She can't become .... not mine. I'm His. He has me in His hands. I know that, in my heart and not just some conscious acknowledgement.

I'm not confused about covenants, or if I am it is no more so than most any other believer. We all have a lot to learn. But, I don't believe that the old covenant is so much chalk that's been wiped off the board to be forgotten. God revealed Himself to mankind through that covenant -- in part. In Christ, we behold the glory of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth. He is the full revelation of the Father, and if we see Him, we see the Father. One day, we will see Him as He is, and we know that we shall "be like Him". It is no reduction, no diminution of the fullness of Jesus to look back at the ways in which God revealed Himself to His people before the Incarnation of Christ and to draw lessons about Him from those times and under the old covenant. The ordinances against Israel are abolished in Christ, but the revelation of God through them has not changed. He is the same God. He has fulfilled and brought to perfection and consummation the purpose of those ordinances. It finds its fulfillment in the person of Jesus.

Fear of God, a respectful, reverential, obedience-desiring, love-motivated, deeply held grip on the Person revealed to us in Christ, and the power and the terror of His greatness ..... that's as NT as you can get isn't it?? Didn't the apostles move and live in that fear?? Or, what else could be motivating Paul as he wrote this in 2 Cor. 5?

10For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

11Therefore, knowing the fear of the Lord, we persuade men, but we are made manifest to God; and I hope that we are made manifest also in your consciences.

12We are not again commending ourselves to you but are giving you an occasion to be proud of us, so that you will have an answer for those who take pride in appearance and not in heart.

13For if we are beside ourselves, it is for God; if we are of sound mind, it is for you.

14For the love of Christ controls us, having concluded this, that one died for all, therefore all died;

15and He died for all, so that they who live might no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died and rose again on their behalf.

If fear and love are necessary antithetical to one another, if love cannot engender healthy fear and if fear cannot motivate and help preserve us unto love, then I'm missing the boat.

[Pastor Bill]

It's important to remember the word fear does not only mean to be afraid, but is also defined as respect. We are to fear (respect) the Lord and in that we must respect His Word and His commandments in our lives, not in a legalistic "If you mess up you're going to Hell" manner, but in the fact that Love BUILDS respect and lifts us up so that we want to be respectful (fearful) of His desires for our lives. God is not looking to crush us, but if we get so swept up in the awesome power of His Grace that we forget that He is God and we are His servants, we lose out on His lordship in our lives, and we, left to our own devices will make a mess out of things.

[MacUser]

LOL...Gentlemen - roots are being revealed for sure. A wonderful thing.

I love you all and do not mean to make anyone defensive in the slightest.. but show all Love as my Father has shown me first. Giving me His SON before I proved myself worthy and all I have to do is receive it.. SO.. Yes.. I am intoxicated with the Love of my Savior! Behold the Lamb. Amazing!

2 Corinthians 5
17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here! 18 All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 20 We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us.

I'm not preaching a Baptist, Pentecostal, or [insert x here] theology. It's The New Covenant Good News.. aka Gospel of Jesus Christ!

Remember... Jesus seen the same scriptures the religious fearful, manipulative Pharisees also seen & measured others with... and YET.. saw a God of Love, Mercy, and Forgiveness! Amazing!

This is now getting very good. This is the core root of this honest tithing thread. If anything is done out of FEAR... of punishment from our Father in Heaven WHEN YOU ARE A BELIEVER in Christ.. it's wrong. Dead works. Only FAITH PLEASES GOD!!! End of discussion. If you are trying to merge the two.. Yes confusion of covenants Brothers.

Now concerning the scriptures.. quoted each one needs to evaluated for context and I believe they will not contradict any scriptures I have posted ( here or before ). If these Fearful scriptures are being used.. it's NOT FOR THOSE IN CHRIST JESUS. Whooo Hooo. <-- I love that btw

I'll take some time and show you a few when I have the time. But I am persuaded that none will contradict this beautiful scripture:

1 John 4:18 ASV
18 There is no fear in love: but perfect love casteth out fear, because fear hath punishment; and he that feareth is not made perfect in love.

What is perfect love?

1 Corinthians 13
4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

This isn't a theology.. it's the Gospel ( that might rub against religious indoctrination - oops ). Wonderful.

Enjoying this Gentlemen beyond words.. it's fantastic!!
Behold the Lamb!!

[MacUser]

but if we get so swept up in the awesome power of His Grace that we forget that He is God and we are His servants, we lose out on His lordship in our lives, and we, left to our own devices will make a mess out of things.

My Spirit reveals to me... He is FATHER and I am SON.

Brother.. your demeanor and spirit is well intentioned and I can sense what a special individual you are. Yet.. Jesus came and manifested HIS NAME.. FATHER. Jesus lived as a SON and then made everything known to us that was given to Him.

John 17
6 "I have manifested your name to the people whom you gave me out of the world. Yours they were, and you gave them to me, and they have kept your word.

What did Jesus Manifest? FATHER

Paul then States.

Galatians 4
4 but when the fulness of the time came, God sent forth his Son, born of a woman, born under the law, 5 that he might redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons. 6 And because ye are sons, God sent forth the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, Abba, Father. 7 So that thou art no longer a bondservant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir through God. 8 Howbeit at that time, not knowing God, ye were in bondage to them that by nature are no gods: 9 but now that ye have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how turn ye back again to the weak and beggarly rudiments, whereunto ye desire to be in bondage over again?

John 15:15 (The Message)

11-15"I've told you these things for a purpose: that my joy might be your joy, and your joy wholly mature. This is my command: Love one another the way I loved you. This is the very best way to love. Put your life on the line for your friends. You are my friends when you do the things I command you. I'm no longer calling you servants because servants don't understand what their master is thinking and planning. No, I've named you friends because I've let you in on everything I've heard from the Father.

Many more scriptures like this. I understand we serve because we LOVE our Father.. but Jesus didn't call us Servants any longer.. He called us much more into His New Covenant.

Awesome!!!

[scooter]

The "gospel"?

You can't simply wipe away the Bible for you own understanding of the "gospel".

It is easy for you say that context would change the meaning of the scriptures provided, however this is untrue.

You may not know it but it is a "doctrine" that you put forth. On top of that an out of balance message will cause some individuals to err and that will be on you.

If your understanding were correct, what would be the need for any other verse than John 3:16.

The rest of the NT, the words of Christ himself, and any standard of Christian have no place in overstated grace.

Grace is abused, misused, and done despite to by people such as yourself who take to "teaching" or extending a make believe "gospel".

I always love to see how people run to the what can separate us from the love of God verse to prove God's limitless grace. If one would notice no sin is listed in the "what shall" portion of the verse.

You can't accept that there is a limit to God's grace.

Even after being told that "tithing" was not looked at as a punishable offense, you still trot it out like you didn't hear.

Repercussions verses punishment, forget tithing your false teaching represents the faithful and the unfaithful on equal footing with/in Christ it's simply false, no matter how many woopee's and backflip's you do over God's unlimited grace.

[Pastor Bill]

OK MacUser, just repeat my last post with the Word "Father" in place of "God" and "Son" in place of "servant" and it still stands, this isn't about semantics, it's about the difference between seeking a Father-Son relationship with God, or simply seeking and independent freedom from all rules/laws/leadership.

No one here is pushing the legalism you are fighting against, and you are getting carried away with your excitement over the freedom that we all recognize and agree with you on, If you can cut through the emotion and simply state your point it would be easier to understand, but the fact is you are coming across as teaching we are free from all, and there is no right and wrong any longer, only our freedom, which contradicts scripture in so many ways not to mention reduces the Father-Son relationship we are to have with God down to a former jailor who has turned us loose completely to our own devices.

I don't believe that is what you are meaning to say, but if you are, you've completely lost it.

[oletimer]

MacUser wrote:
If anything is done out of FEAR... of punishment from our Father in Heaven WHEN YOU ARE A BELIEVER in Christ.. it's wrong. Dead works. Only FAITH PLEASES GOD!!! End of discussion.

I appears that you have no fear for the things of God because your are a "son". I wondering how that you would see this verse. I don't like that one would have to come to Christ out fear, but hey what everget you there just stay.

Jude 1:23
And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.

Giving me His SON before I proved myself worthy and all I have to do is receive it

Here is a nother area that you need "revelation" in and do err. Do you think that you are worthy of Him now? Faithfulness is what finds favor with God. If it goes against your desires, then its legalistic. There is a difference between "legal" and "legalistic", but you seem to bunch them together. The Word of God is legal, not legalistic. You are legalistic with your views.

You keep talking abut being a "son" as one that has it made and yet you remind me more of the "prodigal son" then a son (attatude). Where he took all that he (the son) had and wasted it. Then where do we find him and what is he doing?

Lu 15:25
Now his elder son was in the field: and as he came and drew nigh to the house, he heard musick and dancing.

Lu 15:29
And he answering said to his father, Lo, these many years do I serve thee,.........

A true son is a servant first and you've mde it clear that you are not a servant. Now that's legalistic.

Sometime run out "faithful servant" and maybe you will be able to see the GREATER JOY OF THE LORD.

Her just one of many verses that show the view of the Lord concerning sons and servants.

Mt 25:23
His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.

Joh 12:26
If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour.

MacUser I believe that in order to be a "a good son" then one has to be first a good servant, not taking away from "faith" but rather proving "faith". Whoooo Hoooo!!!!

[MacUser]

We are at the root finally... ohhHHHH!!

The "gospel"?

Absolutely!! If that offends you. I am sorry... my verses, discussions are not made up. They are from the Bible and in complete context. Truth trumps indoctrination. It will set you FREE. That isn't a head word.. it's a HEART word.

You may not know it but it is a "doctrine" that you put forth. On top of that an out of balance message will cause some individuals to err and that will be on you.

If I am quoting the Bible.. in context. How can that be an err? AHHH! In return.. I plead... Have you received the abundance of Grace and the Gift of Righteousness? Are you Reigning in your personal life? Or are you trying to STILL measure up to a dead standard [ or insert whatever it's called to control behavior and elude God's Judgement on you as a believer in Christ ]? If you.. you can spend your life offering GOD something that he didn't require of you and a Gift of Freedom that you failed to receive. Freely Available. I am not making this up.. my brother.. It's Romans 5:17! Beautiful!!

If your understanding were correct, what would be the need for any other verse than John 3:16.

Don't rely on my understanding... Paul STATES.. THIS!!! Wow....

1 Corinthians 2:2 NAS
I determined to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ, and him crucified"

The rest of the NT, the words of Christ himself, and any standard of Christian have no place in overstated grace.

You can't accept that there is a limit to God's grace.

Not at all. I trust in the AUTHORITY of the Son! Just this.. no theology behind it.. just read the verse Jesus spoke my brother.

John 5
22 Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son, 23 that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him.

24 “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life. 25 Very truly I tell you, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live. 26 For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself. 27 And he has given him authority to judge because he is the Son of Man.

Even after being told that "tithing" was not looked at as a punishable offense, you still trot it out like you didn't hear.

No I submit we acknowledge a "head knowledge" of this... and it does NOBODY any good when we don't have an application knowledge of it. This has been the ROOT of my posts and comments.

In closing.. you basically chasten because.. I'm pushing Jesus to much and I submit you can't do that. I will let Jesus finish out the rest here. Again.. BIBLE speaking clear as a bell and in context.

Luke 7:41-50 (The Message)

41-42"Two men were in debt to a banker. One owed five hundred silver pieces, the other fifty. Neither of them could pay up, and so the banker canceled both debts. Which of the two would be more grateful?"

43-47Simon answered, "I suppose the one who was forgiven the most."

"That's right," said Jesus. Then turning to the woman, but speaking to Simon, he said, "Do you see this woman? I came to your home; you provided no water for my feet, but she rained tears on my feet and dried them with her hair. You gave me no greeting, but from the time I arrived she hasn't quit kissing my feet. You provided nothing for freshening up, but she has soothed my feet with perfume. Impressive, isn't it? She was forgiven many, many sins, and so she is very, very grateful. If the forgiveness is minimal, the gratitude is minimal."

48Then he spoke to her: "I forgive your sins."

49That set the dinner guests talking behind his back: "Who does he think he is, forgiving sins!"

50He ignored them and said to the woman, "Your faith has saved you. Go in peace."

Whooo Hooo.. Amazing Savior... Amazing. My Savior My God. *AHHH!!*

I determined to know nothing among you
except Jesus Christ, and him crucified" (1 Corinthians 2:2 NAS)


Behold the LAMB!!!

[MacUser]

I don't believe that is what you are meaning to say, but if you are, you've completely lost it.

LOL.. All my posts have been extremely clear. Hey.. don't get me mixed up again with anyone else. I've basically posted Bible verses one after the other.

I am fully persuaded and convinced in my spirit.. you got it all. My very first post connects to the last.