tithing

[MacUser]

Jude 1:23
And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.

Let's quote this whole amazing section to get full context.

Jude 1
20 But you, dear friends, by building yourselves up in your most holy faith and praying in the Holy Spirit, 21 keep yourselves in God’s love as you wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you to eternal life.

22 Be merciful to those who doubt; 23 save others by snatching them from the fire; to others show mercy, mixed with fear—hating even the clothing stained by corrupted flesh.

24 To him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you before his glorious presence without fault and with great joy— 25 to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.

Now.. again context.. the FEAR of punishment isn't against YOU as a Christian Brother Believer. Not in the slightest. This is for the lost.. it was mercy mixed with fear. Meaning that as you minister to the LOST.. be sure to have mercy on them, express the TRUTH of the GOSPEL of JESUS CHRIST and also the repercussions if you so not to believe on this 100% free gift.

Because it goes onto 24 and state that it's HIM, JESUS CHRIST, that is able to keep us from Stumbling and will present without FAULT and GREAT JOY!! So technically only CHRIST JESUS can keep us from Stumbling? Wow... I think this is needed.. WHOOOO HOOOO!!! LOL.

MacUser I believe that in order to be a "a good son" then one has to be first a good servant, not taking away from "faith" but rather proving "faith". Whoooo Hoooo!!!!

Not in the slightest. Jesus is our model. Before He had done anything at all. God was completely pleased with him as a SON. Before any miracles were performed, people healed, dead raised, ministry performed.. etc etc. Before His Ministry Jesus was Baptized by John and the voice from Heaven was..

Matthew 3:17 (NIV)
17 And a voice from heaven said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.”

God sent His son to die for you In Advance OT. He loved and preordained you. WOW.. OH WOW..

Romans 8
28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. 29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

31 What, then, shall we say in response to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32 He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all—how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? 33 Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. 34 Who then is the one who condemns? [b]No one.[/b]

Yes.. thank you OT immensely for helping me drive home this amazing point. Again.. no theology here.. just the GOSPEL of JESUS CHRIST. SO amazing, so wonderful, so mind blowing good.

Behold THE LAMB!!!

[scooter]

Your assumption is that none of us have read Romans and that we don't fully understand it's impact, we don't understand how woopee wonderful the grace of God is.

We do. Woopee. Praise God. filler filler cuss cuss insert new age expletive here.

It is you that fails to understand the boundaries and limits of grace.

If you continue in the way of Christ, Spirit led and fed everything you say is true.

However being unfaithful in areas of your life to God brings consequences.

You can't woopee away from that truth though you do by artfully dodging the scriptures in context that tell us there is a need for heed.

Any warning shared in the scripture is totally ridiculous because after all noting can separate us right?

WE understand the scriptures regarding grace and God's gift etc. it is you that can't understand the error of limitless grace.

[Pastor Bill]

I don't believe that is what you are meaning to say, but if you are, you've completely lost it.

LOL.. All my posts have been extremely clear. Hey.. don't get me mixed up again with anyone else. I've basically posted Bible verses one after the other.

I am fully persuaded and convinced in my spirit.. you got it all. My very first post connects to the last.

No see you just keep babbling, and didn't even address the questions given to you, you have embraced what you believe to be the complete truth and are unwilling or unable to see anything beyond.

frankly I agree with you that His grace is sufficient, and if you would come down off the giddy high your on for a minute and take a look at the questions and scriptures that have been responded back to you, I doubt you realize you are coming across as believing that once you are saved there is no right or wrong and I don't really believe that is what you are trying to say.

We must be led by His Spirit, our salvation does not put us in control and our will and whim above and beyond all sense of right and wrong, that is what you are coming across as saying, is that truly what you mean? because while I've doubted it for many pages, I'm beginning to think you actually believe that and have completely lost it.

[dolfan]

It is an amazing section. And, Mac, you're right that God's mercy and love and grace are, to us, boundless. From where we stood in a sea of sinfulness, the ol' "miry clay", we have been placed on the Rock with solid footing, fully equipped to stand. God's riches are boundless, and we who know Him haven't seen the half.

But, it is a strain to say that this passage from Jude is merely an evangelism tip. "Give the mercy message, but give them the fear message, too." I'm a firm believer in the fear message, too, for sinners. So, I don't quarrel with that idea. But, that's not what Jude is writing here.

Jude's entire concern is that there has been some -- and there is a threat of further -- apostasy among those whom had earlier come to at least a profession of faith in Christ and some outward commitment to it. The entire letter is a warning against a hidden danger -- those who "crept in unnoticed". Why were they a danger? Well, the text doesn't elaborate. But, it lays out in great detail what the end result of their risk was: in a word, hell.

Jude gets real specific about it. 1. It was necessary for me to write an appeal for you to earnestly fight for the faith as it was originally delivered to you. 2. There are those who have sneaked in among you. 3. Those who crept in are doing/teaching things that are licentious, they are bringing judgment on themselves by leading people into error; the errors are like Sodom/Gomorrah (and thus, worthy of destruction and punishment), they are against God. 4. These same people doing this are in your love feasts and they have no fear and no shame.

Then, he gets to the "earnestly contend" part in v. 17: "But YOU...." And in v. 20 "But YOU....". What was it they were to do? 1. Remember the words of the apostles about people like those guys. 2. Keep building faith; pray; keep (that is, maintain, stay, work) themselves in God's love (i.e., putting in their own minds those virtues/praiseworthy things/honest things/just things/pure things/lovely things about which Paul wrote, as opposed to listening to those evil people Jude already described), waiting on the mercies of Jesus that deliver to eternal life. 3. On a practical side, exercise mercy on those who were wavering between the two opposing messages; but, to those who were gone farther down the path of that error, snatch them from fire; and on others still when showing mercy, do it with fear. Now, I'll submit that "fear" is a two-way word as applied here. It is mercy mixed with fear and circumspection by those who are stable but trying to follow the advice of Jude; it is also mercy dispensed with a real "fear of God" in clearly demonstrating/explaining to the hearers the fact that there is judgment for those who do not come to faith.

[oletimer]

MacUser wrote:
Now.. again context.. the FEAR of punishment isn't against YOU as a Christian Brother Believer. Not in the slightest. This is for the lost.. it was mercy mixed with fear. Meaning that as you minister to the LOST.. be sure to have mercy on them, express the TRUTH of the GOSPEL of JESUS CHRIST and also the repercussions if you so not to believe on this 100% free gift.

Because it goes onto 24 and state that it's HIM, JESUS CHRIST, that is able to keep us from Stumbling and will present without FAULT and GREAT JOY!! So technically only CHRIST JESUS can keep us from Stumbling? Wow... I think this is needed.. WHOOOO HOOOO!!! LOL.

Now.. again context

I'm beginning to see what context is; it is the way that you want it to be. Pastor Bill, Scooter, Dolfan, and other have written some of the best post on the behalf of this subject and yet you have declaired that you and you only is right.

You and others have gotten it in your head that once that a person gets saved, then they don't have anything to worry a bout. Well I got news for you and them, the devel is not dead. As long as he is alive and you are alive then there is the chance that you can fafll from grace. TN speaks in many places were this and that one departed from the faith, left the faith and so on and Paul even spoked of well turning one out of the Church himself in one place.

A child that want work is not worthy of an inheritance. What have you or anybody else got to be faithful for if all you got to do is wait on the trumpet to sound.

Whether it is paying tithes, assemblying our selves together, visiting, or the many other things that is needed or required to keep the work moving, the servant child of God has to be played out.

Can so many be so wrong and only you are right?

[dawgs10]

There is one thing that the scripture does not mention when speaking of things that cant seperate us from the love of God. ourselves.

[Pastor Bill]

There is one thing that the scripture does not mention when speaking of things that cant seperate us from the love of God. ourselves.

VERY well put, and honestly I believe this is the only thing that can separate us from God, Sin can't do it because He overcame that, but if we walk away, drawn by our own lusts, He has given us the free will to do so.

This is why over and over we are warned to Seek God, to examine our lives, to hold fast to that which is true, it's not because his grace is insufficient (as MacUser is trying to twist our words into) but because we are that fickle, throughout scripture and more modern history you see God's people rise and fall, rise and fall, not because God can't keep them, but because we take our eyes off the prize and turn away seeking selfish lusts and self-serving doctrines.

[dolfan]

This is veering way off tithing.

THANK YOU, LORD!

I know I'm probably one of only ... well not many ... here who understand the Bible as teaching the eternal security of the believer. Actually, I don't think there is a dime's worth of difference between most people's views on "once saved, always saved" (a term I dislike) and the predominant view of most Wesleyan-Arminians that one can "lose" his salvation.

I'm not really interested in re-walking through that debate; we've done that here before enough, IMO. BUT, I am interested in using Rom. 8:38-39 as a "proof text" to COUNTER an understanding about "eternal security". More particularly, I think it is a misapplication of it to approach it like "because it doesn't say 'ourselves', it must mean we can separate ourselves.....", etc.

Rom 8:31-39 says (NASB)

If God is for us, who can be against us? 32He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all—how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? 33Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. 34Who is he that condemns? Christ Jesus, who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. 35Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? 36As it is written:

“For your sake we face death all day long;

we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered.”l

37No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons,m neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

The question is not "what" can separate us, but "who". Paul expands the inquiry to more than persons, though, since he answers his own question with non-personal "things". But, whether person or thing, he clearly says that no one and no circumstance on Earth can separate us from God's love. And, in that, he says "anything else in all creation". We, ourselves, are part of the all.

Now, having said that, I don't want to be guilty of over-expanding the application of this passage to mean that one can or cannot "lose his salvation". The more I consider it, the less I think this passage supports either view. Why?

Because, while we were sinners, God loved us so much that Christ died for us. We weren't "in Christ", so to speak, then. Had we been, He would not have died for us, would He? The passage speaks of God's love toward us. He continually presses us, always pushes, prods, pursues, guides us toward Himself. As believers, the love of Christ that is now in us compels us to be who He wants us to be, to obey Him, to serve and love Him and others. For unbelievers, He draws them to Him and He uses believers to do it (i.e., by preaching, by loving one another, by practical ministry, etc.). Who....or what.....will stop God from expressing His love to us in any of these ways and more, whether one be in the faith or out of it??

Paul's words here are great encouragement to believers in grievous situations, and they are motivators for us as well to make disciples out of unbelievers. How much greater is my hope, how much more likely am I to remain in prayer for the unsaved people in my sphere and yours, if I know that God's love for them is pushing, pushing, pushing? How more likely am I to respond to them if I know that God is drawing them to Himself through people like my own self!?!

That's the takeaway from Paul's words at the end of Romans 8. Chapters 9-11 are really an aside for Paul to talk specifically about Israel. He begins what we know as chapter 12:1 with an admonition that ties his complex theses together (the one preceding ch. 9-12 and the one made inside ch. 9-12) -- so read 12:1 as a continuation of 8:38. What does he say?

"Therefore, I urge you, brothers, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God—this is your spiritual act of worship. Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.

And, now, we are back in the middle of the tithing issue, too, aren't we? Because, what this all comes to is this very succinct and pointed dilemma: Will we, in light of God's mercy, in light of God's love from which we cannot be separated (even if we CAN, somehow, as believers be separated from his salvation), offer our very bodies (or, if you will, our very selves, our very creation, our very "thingness" that he talks about at the end of Romans as living sacrifices to God? What would we hold back from this God?

Lord, help ME. I might even throw in my own Wow and Amazing, there!!!

[dawgs10]

This is veering way off tithing.

THANK YOU, LORD!

I know I'm probably one of only ... well not many ... here who understand the Bible as teaching the eternal security of the believer. Actually, I don't think there is a dime's worth of difference between most people's views on "once saved, always saved" (a term I dislike) and the predominant view of most Wesleyan-Arminians that one can "lose" his salvation.

I'm not really interested in re-walking through that debate; we've done that here before enough, IMO. BUT, I am interested in using Rom. 8:38-39 as a "proof text" to COUNTER an understanding about "eternal security". More particularly, I think it is a misapplication of it to approach it like "because it doesn't say 'ourselves', it must mean we can separate ourselves.....", etc.

Rom 8:31-39 says (NASB)

If God is for us, who can be against us? 32He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all—how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? 33Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. 34Who is he that condemns? Christ Jesus, who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. 35Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? 36As it is written:

“For your sake we face death all day long;

we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered.”l

37No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons,m neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

The question is not "what" can separate us, but "who". Paul expands the inquiry to more than persons, though, since he answers his own question with non-personal "things". But, whether person or thing, he clearly says that no one and no circumstance on Earth can separate us from God's love. And, in that, he says "anything else in all creation". We, ourselves, are part of the all.

Now, having said that, I don't want to be guilty of over-expanding the application of this passage to mean that one can or cannot "lose his salvation". The more I consider it, the less I think this passage supports either view. Why?

Because, while we were sinners, God loved us so much that Christ died for us. We weren't "in Christ", so to speak, then. Had we been, He would not have died for us, would He? The passage speaks of God's love toward us. He continually presses us, always pushes, prods, pursues, guides us toward Himself. As believers, the love of Christ that is now in us compels us to be who He wants us to be, to obey Him, to serve and love Him and others. For unbelievers, He draws them to Him and He uses believers to do it (i.e., by preaching, by loving one another, by practical ministry, etc.). Who....or what.....will stop God from expressing His love to us in any of these ways and more, whether one be in the faith or out of it??

Paul's words here are great encouragement to believers in grievous situations, and they are motivators for us as well to make disciples out of unbelievers. How much greater is my hope, how much more likely am I to remain in prayer for the unsaved people in my sphere and yours, if I know that God's love for them is pushing, pushing, pushing? How more likely am I to respond to them if I know that God is drawing them to Himself through people like my own self!?!

That's the takeaway from Paul's words at the end of Romans 8. Chapters 9-11 are really an aside for Paul to talk specifically about Israel. He begins what we know as chapter 12:1 with an admonition that ties his complex theses together (the one preceding ch. 9-12 and the one made inside ch. 9-12) -- so read 12:1 as a continuation of 8:38. What does he say?

"Therefore, I urge you, brothers, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God—this is your spiritual act of worship. Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.

And, now, we are back in the middle of the tithing issue, too, aren't we? Because, what this all comes to is this very succinct and pointed dilemma: Will we, in light of God's mercy, in light of God's love from which we cannot be separated (even if we CAN, somehow, as believers be separated from his salvation), offer our very bodies (or, if you will, our very selves, our very creation, our very "thingness" that he talks about at the end of Romans as living sacrifices to God? What would we hold back from this God?

Lord, help ME. I might even throw in my own Wow and Amazing, there!!!

i do agree that romans does not prove "once saved always saved" (i think that name is more fitting to doctorine) but Hebrews 10:26 is clear. For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for the judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. thats very clear. and now i have officialy went way off course.

[Poimen]

Dolfan,

I understand what you are saying, and while I agree that the general scope here is about deliverance from dire circumstances, I don't think it without merit in the scope of things to find some soteriological application here. After all, the most dire of situations is to be lost and undone without God and hope in Christ. Being delivered from that is indeed the epitome of God's saving power.

However, in my experience, it has been the OSASers, ESers, and or Perseverance-ers who most often use this Scripture as a proof text.

I have recently been filling in and preaching at a local SBC, and this is one of the very issues the brother directing the work there (in lieu of a pastor being selected) used when he and I were cordially discussing similarities and differences in our own beliefs, as well as that of many Baptists vs Pentecostals.

Btw, I realize not all Baptists are ESers, and not all ESers are Baptists. Furthermore, I was not aware you were an ES proponent. I don't know how I missed that (or possibly forgot that) over the years here, but I did.

At any rate, something I've been meaning to mention to my Baptist friend and fellow believer, and now with you, is that while this passage does refer to "any other creature" it is an inversion of application to make it refer to the individual themselves. The context indicates these as outward forces (that is forces and "things" outside of the believer) in creation. As such I find no merit in the argument that such, in context, necessarily includes the believer himself.

[dolfan]

Dolfan,

I understand what you are saying, and while I agree that the general scope here is about deliverance from dire circumstances, I don't think it without merit in the scope of things to find some soteriological application here. After all, the most dire of situations is to be lost and undone without God and hope in Christ. Being delivered from that is indeed the epitome of God's saving power.

However, in my experience, it has been the OSASers, ESers, and or Perseverance-ers who most often use this Scripture as a proof text.

I have recently been filling in and preaching at a local SBC, and this is one of the very issues the brother directing the work there (in lieu of a pastor being selected) used when he and I were cordially discussing similarities and differences in our own beliefs, as well as that of many Baptists vs Pentecostals.

Btw, I realize not all Baptists are ESers, and not all ESers are Baptists. Furthermore, I was not aware you were an ES proponent. I don't know how I missed that (or possibly forgot that) over the years here, but I did.

At any rate, something I've been meaning to mention to my Baptist friend and fellow believer, and now with you, is that while this passage does refer to "any other creature" it is an inversion of application to make it refer to the individual themselves. The context indicates these as outward forces in creation. As such I find no merit in the argument that such, in context, necessarily includes the believer himself.

It doesn't indicate outward forces. The "other" is an all-inclusive statement after his more specific list. Paul's intent is clear that nothing, and no person, can separate us from God's love. I don't think it means, though, that nothing can separate us from His salvation. For other reasons, I think that it is true that if we are saved we remain so. This passage -- I agree -- IS often cited by those who believe in the eternal security of the believer to support their position. IMO, that's weak support because that's not what Paul is saying. Actually, if you do consider where he goes in chapter 12, it is not an inferential leap to conclude that 8:38, 39 DOES support eternal security (or, as I like to call is in shorthand, "ISAS" or "if saved, always saved") because, as Paul writes elsewhere, the love of Christ constrains us to obey Him. 12:1, 2 is perfectly in line with that idea -- that since you are saved, then present yourselves (also consistent with "yourselves" being included in that list of things that can't separate us from God's love) as living sacrifices. So, IF you are inclined to think that 8:38, 39 does implicate the eternal security of the believer, there is textual and contextual support for it as you follow the natural flow of Paul's thesis. But, that's not my personal understanding and view of it. It unduly complicates what Paul is really driving at to insert into his argument that the believer is eternally secure. If that is true from Scriptural revelation of God, it is true elsewhere and not in Romans 8, IMO. By the same token, my brothers who believe that the believer can lose their salvation do not gain any leverage by propping up Romans 8:38, 39 and saying that since it doesn't say "ourselves" that it must mean that "ourselves" CAN separate us from God's love. Which just brings me back to square one -- Rom. 8: 38, 39 is beside the point of OSAS/ISAS/whatever-you-label-it.

[Pastor Bill]

Personally I've found that most in the SB are not as OSAS as they claim, and there is much less difference between the camps than you see on the surface.

Most who proclaim OSAS will doubt the initial salvation of one who turns away from God, and do believe that to be truly saved you must continue on to the end, I think this stance casts doubts in those that had an experience with God and then fell away, because by doubting their initial salvation it opens the door for "well if that wasn't real, then how can I really know this is..."

At the same time most of us who disagree with OSAS aren't as legalistic as it is often seen from the other side either, believing that His Grace is sufficient, but also recognizing that we can in ourselves turn away.

[dawgs10]

Dolfan,

I understand what you are saying, and while I agree that the general scope here is about deliverance from dire circumstances, I don't think it without merit in the scope of things to find some soteriological application here. After all, the most dire of situations is to be lost and undone without God and hope in Christ. Being delivered from that is indeed the epitome of God's saving power.

However, in my experience, it has been the OSASers, ESers, and or Perseverance-ers who most often use this Scripture as a proof text.

I have recently been filling in and preaching at a local SBC, and this is one of the very issues the brother directing the work there (in lieu of a pastor being selected) used when he and I were cordially discussing similarities and differences in our own beliefs, as well as that of many Baptists vs Pentecostals.

Btw, I realize not all Baptists are ESers, and not all ESers are Baptists. Furthermore, I was not aware you were an ES proponent. I don't know how I missed that (or possibly forgot that) over the years here, but I did.

At any rate, something I've been meaning to mention to my Baptist friend and fellow believer, and now with you, is that while this passage does refer to "any other creature" it is an inversion of application to make it refer to the individual themselves. The context indicates these as outward forces in creation. As such I find no merit in the argument that such, in context, necessarily includes the believer himself.

It doesn't indicate outward forces. The "other" is an all-inclusive statement after his more specific list. Paul's intent is clear that nothing, and no person, can separate us from God's love. I don't think it means, though, that nothing can separate us from His salvation. For other reasons, I think that it is true that if we are saved we remain so. This passage -- I agree -- IS often cited by those who believe in the eternal security of the believer to support their position. IMO, that's weak support because that's not what Paul is saying. Actually, if you do consider where he goes in chapter 12, it is not an inferential leap to conclude that 8:38, 39 DOES support eternal security (or, as I like to call is in shorthand, "ISAS" or "if saved, always saved") because, as Paul writes elsewhere, the love of Christ constrains us to obey Him. 12:1, 2 is perfectly in line with that idea -- that since you are saved, then present yourselves (also consistent with "yourselves" being included in that list of things that can't separate us from God's love) as living sacrifices. So, IF you are inclined to think that 8:38, 39 does implicate the eternal security of the believer, there is textual and contextual support for it as you follow the natural flow of Paul's thesis. But, that's not my personal understanding and view of it. It unduly complicates what Paul is really driving at to insert into his argument that the believer is eternally secure. If that is true from Scriptural revelation of God, it is true elsewhere and not in Romans 8, IMO. By the same token, my brothers who believe that the believer can lose their salvation do not gain any leverage by propping up Romans 8:38, 39 and saying that since it doesn't say "ourselves" that it must mean that "ourselves" CAN separate us from God's love. Which just brings me back to square one -- Rom. 8: 38, 39 is beside the point of OSAS/ISAS/whatever-you-label-it.

i agree with about romans. i would like to know how you feel about hebrews 10.

[Pastor Bill]

I see what you are saying Dolfan, and I agree those scriptures are a weak support for either side.

Personally I do not believe that you can lose your salvation, but I do believe you can break relationship with God, and He does not force you to remain "in Christ"

Nothing can separate us from His Love, but our relationship with God is dependent on more than just His Love, but also our acceptance of that Love. He Loves those that never have or never will accept that Love, but we are saved by accepting that Grace and Love, just as those are "lost" by rejecting it. I don't believe this is a one time choice, and God is standing there demanding "Hey you can't go back on it now, you already said!" But He allows us the freedom to come into His Grace and Love at our will, and (I believe) he allows us to walk away from that should we choose, and it is for this we are warned to submit ourselves and not be drawn away by our own lusts.

[Full Quiver]

Just wanted to report that our pastor reported wonderful things coming from the people sowing their tithes & offerings directly into people's lives instead of into the 'storehouse'. Also he said that this week's deposit was just $3,000 less than last year at this time when we had far more people in attendance for the special event. Now how was this accomplished when he gave up $50,000+ in Saturday's offering?

Looks like God blessed the church for Biblical move.