tithing

[dolfan]

i agree with about romans. i would like to know how you feel about hebrews 10.

Me and you already danced to this song, didn't we??

[dawgs10]

i agree with about romans. i would like to know how you feel about hebrews 10.

Me and you already danced to this song, didn't we??

yes but dont know that i ever asked you what you think about hebrews chapter 10. how do you reconcile this chapter with you take on the subject?

[Poimen]

It doesn't indicate outward forces. The "other" is an all-inclusive statement after his more specific list. ... But, that's not my personal understanding and view of it. It unduly complicates what Paul is really driving at ... Rom. 8: 38, 39 is beside the point of OSAS/ISAS/whatever-you-label-it.

Okay, but then that supports my position that such refers to outside forces. No? Salvation aside, what are these things the believer is contending against or enduring except they be forces outside of one's self?

IMHO if the passage refers to outside forces as it concerns non-soteriological circumstances, then it must likewise refer to outside sources if soteriological implications are to be had as well.

[Paully_44]

wow, 22 pages and still going strong.

I believe that you should live according to your Godly convctions.

If one honestly believes that scripture tells them to tithe, then by all means do it.

If one believes that it is not relevant, I am not going to judge you.

[dolfan]

i agree with about romans. i would like to know how you feel about hebrews 10.

Me and you already danced to this song, didn't we??

yes but dont know that i ever asked you what you think about hebrews chapter 10. how do you reconcile this chapter with you take on the subject?

Did you click that link?

[dawgs10]

i agree with about romans. i would like to know how you feel about hebrews 10.

Me and you already danced to this song, didn't we??

yes but dont know that i ever asked you what you think about hebrews chapter 10. how do you reconcile this chapter with you take on the subject?

Did you click that link?

no i did not. i just took a look at it. not to pressure into an answer but i still did not read where you directly answered to heb. chapter 10. so take it or leave it. i understand if this is going to far off base.

[Full Quiver]

Read Malachi. It is the Lord speaking thru the prophet directly to the priests, the Levites. 3:9 says they robbed God and the entire nation of Israel. So a contextual reading of such demands that people stop placing this yoke on Christians.

The Word says He would send John and then Jesus would come into the temple and correct the masters and scholars, the priests. He just that in the NT as dawgs quotes as his excuse to place the undue yolk of tithing on Christians.

Please, go read the book.

[dolfan]

Hi, Dawgs --

Not that it's far off base or anything, but if you want to dig into it further together we can do it over time in the doctrine forum. I'm always glad to discuss my thoughts on stuff and hear yours.

But, let me say this much and it may wrap it up anyway.

Suppose a man, having knelt in prayer and having spoken to God that he is sorry for his sins and makes a request in some words that Christ be His Savior. Let's say even that he becomes a regular attender, member, baptized, tither, teacher even. Let's say he then -- for no reason attached to mental illness -- decides one day he's had enough of the rat race and he either (a) pays a prostitute and has sex with her; (b) intentionally gets falling down drunk and does bad karaoke to George Strait at no-cover bar in Birmingham; (c) steals $500 from his employer to cover an unpayable gambling debt because he took Alabama and gave LSU and the 6.5 points; (d) or does something else like that or all of of the above. You get the picture.

I think you and I would look at that man and say, "Well, he's no Christian." The difference would be you'd say, "He used to be." I'd say, "He never was." As a practical matter, does it matter?? If he doesn't repent and transform, it is academic to wonder what he was; we both know what he will become if he doesn't come to Christ in a serious, life-changing, intentionally permanent way.

Now, in the thread I linked to, Scooter had pointed out that he'd seen funerals preached over the bodies of living hell-raisers who had, in a more lucid moment in life, professed to be saved by Christ and maybe even started down a road that either (from your view, perhaps) was genuinely Christian or (from mine) apparently Christian. Those sermons that Scooter heard/saw/heard about were preaching the soul of that person into heaven. Well, that's poppycock. The preacher who does so is badly misinformed. I don't doubt that there are all sorts of badly misinformed preachers preaching absolutely dastardly lies about God. Nothing new there. Jesus said you'll know a tree by its fruit. No ignorant, illiterate and pagan child would believe a rotten tomato is edible and delicious. Christians ought to have as much sense, at least, about life with God. Unbelievers deserve the truth, but merely confronting them with a lie told by another who names Christ is never going to win them. And, certainly, trying to explain the difference between "eternal security" and the Arminian view of that issue to them is going to be like trying to copy the Declaration of Independence with a bowl of Alpha-Bits. What would be the point? No, sir -- the gospel of Christ with all of the force of truth is the only message worth hearing, so it is the only one worth sharing. If someone comes to faith, as it becomes necessary to mature that person in the doctrine of the apostles, the growing believer will come to a perfectly comfortable conclusion about this whole thing as God gives the grace and knowledge to do so. Personally, I'm not overly concerned about whether they believe as I do on the matter or not. Hold fast to that which is good, and you'll never have to worry yourself about the question of just how eternal your security is.

[scooter]

Hold fast to that which is good, and you'll never have to worry yourself about the question of just how eternal your security is.

Response: Is holding fast a work?

Thanks for mentioning what I have seen. My postion and understanding is based in those experiences.

[Pastor Bill]

Dolfan, I think you summed up the issue pretty well, and I agree the difference is so small it's not really as big of an issue as many make it out to be.

I only have 2 issues that really keep me firmly planted on the side against osas/es, and those are:

1. Seeing that many who have been taught OSAS/ES don't go beyond the surface as you have here, how many do you see that use that doctrine to brush aside God calling to them, because they trust in an experience that did little to change their life.

2. Seeing many in this situation who realize they are lost, but in doubting their former efforts they feel that they can't do it right if what they had before was "false"

I know there is very little difference between the two doctrines when you dig down to the real meat, just as you pointed out, but evangelically there is a danger in this side that I have personally seen turn people away.

[dolfan]

Dolfan, I think you summed up the issue pretty well, and I agree the difference is so small it's not really as big of an issue as many make it out to be.

I only have 2 issues that really keep me firmly planted on the side against osas/es, and those are:

1. Seeing that many who have been taught OSAS/ES don't go beyond the surface as you have here, how many do you see that use that doctrine to brush aside God calling to them, because they trust in an experience that did little to change their life.

2. Seeing many in this situation who realize they are lost, but in doubting their former efforts they feel that they can't do it right if what they had before was "false"

I know there is very little difference between the two doctrines when you dig down to the real meat, just as you pointed out, but evangelically there is a danger in this side that I have personally seen turn people away.

And, I agree with you on those dangers. They're real. And, boy, howdy, how real is the need for discipleship? You know, this calls back to my mind some of the themes of Randy Howard from your assembly regarding holiness. As I recall, it was the idea that holiness still matters, and that it, at least in part, defines the COGOP as a "movement". So, it is one of the reasons I remain an admirer and proud of the fact that it is where I came from as a Christian.

Now, though, I'll give you an example of something I see and have seen and heard quite regularly and recently. Without pinpointing where I heard it, it wasn't a Baptist or Calvinist preacher. But, here's the repeated plea: "It is as easy as just believing, telling God you're sorry for your sins, and asking Jesus to come into your heart."

I'm sorry, but that is not true. The only thing preventing it from being an outright lie is that it is an honestly held conviction by this person. The irony is that it is THIS kind of plea that mostly sets up people to fail, IMO. Just come forward or raise your hands, repeat this prayer, and you're saved. Until, that is, you're either not or you die first ---- that's the thinking behind it. And, that's just not right. I mean, what kind of perversion of the gospel of Christ is it to invite someone into a race between their own sins that may very well undo them on the one hand and on the other hand the grave that'll seal their status as dead in Christ?! Which is more dangerous? Preaching the dunked and donating sinner into heaven after he's dead, or duping a compliant sinner who will "pray the prayer" but not a whole lot more but who still has an opportunity to really convert? You've got "OSAS" on the one hand, and taken to an illogical end but it happens daily, but on the other you've got this whole "easy believism" that actually leads to an equally "easy unbelievism" when undiscipled people fall and get relegated from disciple to being on the prayer list and that's about it.

Now, no one here is advocating either of these approaches. But, I only mention it because this other side exists, too. This other danger is there as well. And, it is in Pentecostal/Holiness churches that this happens. Not exclusively, but commonly enough. We shouldn't yield to the temptation to defend either of them as if we have to choose between them. We don't.

[Pastor Bill]

Dolfan,

I agree, in fact I preached a revival last week, and one of the main focuses of what God put on my heart for that small local church was that it's time to start being the church. Time to start reaching out with some love, discipleship and really standing together and lifting up those new in the faith and those needing to come into the faith.

We can't just sit back and enjoy our salvation while we watch people have experiences and walk away from them unchanged. There is a purpose for the church, and it's the work that needs done, not just inviting people in, but walking together to strengthen one another and lift one another up.

[Pastorbps]

I think we have a 20th century methodology to our evangelism. Tell a sad story, explain how easy it is to become a Christian, play soft music on the organ, have people come up and pray. We want a "Yes" but are we asking the right question? Are we challenging people to make a life altering decision. The NT church challenged people to make such a decision which would in turn be met by a life altering work of the Holy Spirit in the person's heart. Becoming a Christian in NT times may have appeared to be a "simple" profession of faith but there was nothing simple about professing Jesus as Christ, Saviour, and Lord. It meant exclusion from your synagogue, threats from the men who killed Jesus, the loss of family, etc. To profess Christ, you had to consider all of those things. Jesus didn't shy away from those things. In fact, Jesus taught people to count the cost before deciding to follow Him ("No man buildeth a tower..." "No man fights a war...") Jesus warned people that if they were going to follow Him they were going to have to take up their cross, deny self, and follow Him.
Yes, there are MANY who make professions of faith who were never really Born Again. It is easy to profess Him as Lord it is much more difficult to surrender to His Lordship.
Having said that, I do believe there are those who do make that choice BUT they turn away from their faith. There are just too many scriptures which warn men about denying their faith and encouraging them to hold their confession to the end to believe it is not possible for someone to have the faith and then to deny the faith.

[RamboPreacher]

just to add another post to this long thread.
I like to give. i believe that God has gifted me with that charismatic gift.
I believe in giving. I believe that a giving lifestyle is exemplified as the people of the NT church/Body of Christ. I do not believe that the tithe is commanded, but I believe that it is expected. I will even say that it is foundational to the lifestyle of giving. there is no law, or checkbox to select for attaining righteousness, it is merely an indicator of the heart. for where the billfold is, there is your heart.

I have been in the ministry for decades and involved in administrative and accounting and treasury roles for most of that time. that giving indicator is always (and I mean always, I have never seen this not be the case) "telling" of where the heart is in reference to the commitment. giving may reduce from economic variables, but outside of that it is the indicator someone is falling away from God (armenian POV/backsliding).

I am not saying that it doesn't happen otherwise, but it has been my experience that when someone that is a consistent giver, slows, and stops, they will soon leave the church.

so. give. give cheerfully, give without feeling you are being coerced, and give generously. further, if you have to count to see if you have given a tithe, then it is my opinion that you aren't giving enough. hehehehe

to me it's simple. it's a matter of worship. it happened before levitical law made directives, and it was attested to in the NT. extra conanical works (especially in Judaism and Judaistic historical docs), the tithe was expected, assumed and not talked about much as it was part of the way of life, more akin to something national/patriotic, than religious. I believe that is why Jesus said what he said. to internalize the need for giving, and not make it such a legalistic "check it off" to get righteous, issue.

Just like when he summarized the 10 words (commandments) to to greatest. and also internalized murder to a condition of the heart and adultery the same way.

I tithe. but if my membership to the COGOP was conditional on that (as it used to be, as I understand), I would not have joined.

[Full Quiver]

I heard a woman testify in favor of tithing the other night by saying that God "paid some bills" for her because she was a faithful tither. She also mentioned that she owed the IRS & paid them $60,000.

My question is why doesn't faithful tithing eliminate the IRS from our lives? The Scripture declares that God wants us to prosper yet the IRS is there to rob us at every corner. Laughing