when did God stop destroying nations and peoples?

[paul]

Amazing Logic that many inthe western church displays. The Asian Nations, including Japan and India is experiencing a massive revival, unparalled. Asia is becomng, and in my oponion, will become the largest mission sending area of the world.

Just think....massive revival, millions coming to Christ, missionaries starting to flow from these countries and God say's, Oh!! wait, I know you are coming unto repentance, I know you are turning to me, but.....I must destroy your nation by flood and earthquake beacuse of the sins of your fathers. SooooooooooSorrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrry.

Forgive me, but the for the general portion of the western church, it is self righteous, hypritical, lazy, self indulgent and selfish.

[beckrl]

First of all who's the prophet that says that what is upon Japan is God's wrath? Do we now claim that national disaster is from God and that disaster is the judgement of that nations sins? Why would God kill innocent people who would otherwise repent and be saved.

Sorry guys I only see this as an national disaster. The Earth is known to move from time to time it just that Japan is the result of the Earth's faults moving. The question should be what should be our response as a christian nation?

[dolfan]

Amazing Logic that many inthe western church displays. The Asian Nations, including Japan and India is experiencing a massive revival, unparalled. Asia is becomng, and in my oponion, will become the largest mission sending area of the world.

Just think....massive revival, millions coming to Christ, missionaries starting to flow from these countries and God say's, Oh!! wait, I know you are coming unto repentance, I know you are turning to me, but.....I must destroy your nation by flood and earthquake beacuse of the sins of your fathers. SooooooooooSorrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrry.

Forgive me, but the for the general portion of the western church, it is self righteous, hypritical, lazy, self indulgent and selfish.

I'm guessing that maybe we've superimposed Western values onto the Christian faith so much that what many of us have come to believe is not the gospel of Jesus at all. When I think about that it scares me. You want to talk about judgment? Man, oh man.

Every institution of men under the sun, with the one, unique and sole exclusion being the body of Christ, is occupied with its own power. There is not one single entity (again, excepting the Body) that gives power in any instance where it does not also gain power for itself. That value permeates the church in America. The church has failed to inoculate against it here. And, I'm telling ya, it is a perversion of the faith. It is as much "another gospel" as anything against which Paul wrote with the sternest language.

For any part of the church in America to posit that, in the face of the reality of what is happening in the East in terms of the very Holy Spirit adding people to the Body daily as it pleases Him, God is judging those very peoples with natural disasters, is to say none other than that God is gaining leverage in doing so. That is arrogant, a form of pride and is sin. Jesus already possesses all authority in heaven and earth. He gains nothing in such disaster. Every tongue is already bound to confess His Lordship.

On the contrary, God GIVES power to become sons of God to those who believe on the name of Jesus. That power is given to those who, by the Holy Spirit, are baptized into the Body. It cost God His Son. But, He gains nothing in terms of power in the giving of power to His own. When God judges the world in righteousness, He will not gain power in the doing of it. His judgment will be because He already has all authority and because most of humanity will have rejected Him. In fact, the world is condemned already because it has not believed in Jesus. Those whom He has called and chosen do not make Him more powerful. He calls and chooses and empowers because He already has the power to call, to save, to transform.

When we talk of leveraging disasters, we are looking at it from a lowly, human point of view whereby we see opportunities to speak of this power of God to manifest weakness and despair. When we talk of God causing disasters to judge those whom He seeks to save -- and that is the talk here --we accuse God of leveraging His power to gain superiority as if He needs to vanquish in order to save. What an insult! He is already the Victor of all eternity. And, yes, judgment is imminent upon this world. But, today is the day of salvation.

God is not interested in nor does He engage in a power-based quid pro quo to get whom He wants. That is a western value that has served the powers in high places well, but it is NOT the value of the Body of Christ nor is it the manner in which the God of all creation deals with the objects of His love. Nor does He deal with the objects of His wrath in this way since their destruction will be absolute.

[Full Quiver]

Ok, You say I condemn them as godless emperor worshipers which in general they were in the 1940s at least. If you deny this then you a re deceived PG. And you sugar coat them as a nation of revival even though the numbers aren't supporting this. I'll be the first one to shout glory for every Japanese person that gets saved and if you'll give me an address I'll gladly, more than gladly send a check to directly support your ministry in Japan. I will expect to hear real results though. In fact I think I'll send Samaritan's Purse a check because they are on the ground working. When do you plan on being on the ground in japan? Aren't you the overseer?

Beckrl, "innocent' people die every day and they do so because God said it would happen if Adam ate the forbidden fruit. People that very well may repent one day die all the time. Life sux!

Dolfan, what does the Lord have to prove? This Earth will perish one day sooner or later and it will be at His command so please tell me what does He have to prove? Why would He destroy the Earth since HE has nothing to prove? My guess is He isn't proving anything! The Old Testament tells us that HE destroyed many nations. Shoot, most people on J2 believe that God curses those that curse Israel but be it far from HIM to cause a friggin' earthquake.

UNBELIEVABLE is all I can say. How deep will the blood be when Jesus slaughters the nations that gather to make war against HIM. I wish some Japanese people would get saved, no doubt thousands if not millions will, and I hope they visit America and bring revival.

Zephaniah 1:12 And it shall come to pass at that time, that I will search Jerusalem with candles, and punish the men that are settled on their lees: that say in their heart, The LORD will not do good, neither will he do evil.

I didn't know God's own kids wouldn't know HIM well enough to not be guilty of such.

Also, as I have mentioned I am a member of a large AoG church in town. Our local church gave to Asian and Asian Pacific Missions this past year $14,060.00 which does not include Thailand, Cambodia, India, Indonesia, or New Guinea. How much did you and Reunion give PG? Who's judging and condemning? For the record, our local church gave $1,446,055.00 to mission work in 2010 in a bad economy, 2nd worse since the great depression is what some say. God help us to do better in 2011.

[Pastor Gary]

Ok, You say I condemn them as godless emperor worshipers which in general they were in the 1940s at least. If you deny this then you a re deceived PG.

The 1940s? It is 2011, Danny. God's not that slow on the draw, is he? ("I think I'll smack the godless, emperor-worshipping Japanese by drowning a bunch of babies and old women... I'll get around to it in 70 years or so.")

And you sugar coat them as a nation of revival even though the numbers aren't supporting this.

You have NO real impartial statistics, and I have at least first-hand testimonies of people planting churches there.

I'll be the first one to shout glory for every Japanese person that gets saved and if you'll give me an address I'll gladly, more than gladly send a check to directly support your ministry in Japan.

Clever. I have no ministry in Japan. I can give you PLENTY of addresses for your check... addresses of growing, thriving, vibrant Japanese churches. How about sending your check to Fukushima Baptist Church, where the engineer trying to stop the nuclear disaster is a member?

I will expect to hear real results though.

And how, exactly, will you quantify those results? Noah preached for 120 years and only a few people were "saved" -- would you ask for your Ark Pledge back? Paul said that some plant, some water, and GOD gives the increase. Since there has been a lot of planting in Japan, and many tears watering the seed, if you have a problem with the amount of increase, your argument is with God.

In fact I think I'll send Samaritan's Purse a check because they are on the ground working.

Great. They are a fine organization. But why on earth would you work against GOD? Your premise is that God sent the disaster upon the Japanese people, and -- apparently -- you think he meant to rain misery down upon them, and here you are trying to fight God by alleviating that misery.

When do you plan on being on the ground in japan? Aren't you the overseer?

I am not now, nor have I ever been the Overseer of Japan. I am the Overseer of Hawaii, and we are sending direct, immediate aid.

UNBELIEVABLE is all I can say.

I agree. Your position is UNBELIEVABLY ignorant. Do you also believe AIDS is God's punishment for homosexuality? Military deaths God's judgement on America? You say you are "a member of a large AoG church in town" but, frankly, you sound more like a member of Westboro Baptist Church.

I'd be interested in knowing whether the pastor of your "large AoG church in town" agrees with your view.

Our local church gave to Asian and Asian Pacific Missions this past year $14,060.00 which does not include Thailand, Cambodia, India, Indonesia, or New Guinea.

I, like you, am arguing without statistics, but I'd be willing to guess that the big dog-and-pony-show attractional circus your church did when they hauled in dirt and held a rodeo in there cost more than the total amount given to Asian and Asian Pacific Missions this past year.

[Pastor Gary]

Ok, You say I condemn them as godless emperor worshipers which in general they were in the 1940s at least. If you deny this then you a re deceived PG.

The 1940s? It is 2011, Danny. God's not that slow on the draw, is he? ("I think I'll smack the godless, emperor-worshipping Japanese by drowning a bunch of babies and old women... I'll get around to it in 70 years or so.")

And you sugar coat them as a nation of revival even though the numbers aren't supporting this.

You have NO real impartial statistics, and I have at least first-hand testimonies of people planting churches there.

I'll be the first one to shout glory for every Japanese person that gets saved and if you'll give me an address I'll gladly, more than gladly send a check to directly support your ministry in Japan.

Clever. I have no ministry in Japan. I can give you PLENTY of addresses for your check... addresses of growing, thriving, vibrant Japanese churches. How about sending your check to Fukushima Baptist Church, where the engineer trying to stop the nuclear disaster is a member?

I will expect to hear real results though.

And how, exactly, will you quantify those results? Noah preached for 120 years and only a few people were "saved" -- would you ask for your Ark Pledge back? Paul said that some plant, some water, and GOD gives the increase. Since there has been a lot of planting in Japan, and many tears watering the seed, if you have a problem with the amount of increase, your argument is with God.

In fact I think I'll send Samaritan's Purse a check because they are on the ground working.

Great. They are a fine organization. But why on earth would you work against GOD? Your premise is that God sent the disaster upon the Japanese people, and -- apparently -- you think he meant to rain misery down upon them, and here you are trying to fight God by alleviating that misery.

When do you plan on being on the ground in japan? Aren't you the overseer?

I am not now, nor have I ever been the Overseer of Japan. I am the Overseer of Hawaii, and we are sending direct, immediate aid.

UNBELIEVABLE is all I can say.

I agree. Your position is UNBELIEVABLY ignorant. Do you also believe AIDS is God's punishment for homosexuality? Military deaths God's judgement on America? You say you are "a member of a large AoG church in town" but, frankly, you sound more like a member of Westboro Baptist Church.

I'd be interested in knowing whether the pastor of your "large AoG church in town" agrees with your view.

Our local church gave to Asian and Asian Pacific Missions this past year $14,060.00 which does not include Thailand, Cambodia, India, Indonesia, or New Guinea.

I, like you, am arguing without statistics, but I'd be willing to guess that the big dog-and-pony-show attractional circus your church did when they hauled in dirt and held a rodeo in there cost more than the total amount given to Asian and Asian Pacific Missions this past year.

[Full Quiver]

Does my pastor agree with me? I don't know. But again my stance is that it could be possible that the earthquake and following disaster is the judgment of God due to Japan's unbelief and false worship. NEVER have I said it was God's wrath. See the difference in you and I is that you speak in absolutes and I continue in asking because I don't pretend to know the mind of God as some apparently do.

I thought you were some CoGoP rep. over Asia Pacific? If not I apologize and therefore it is not your ministry.

Work against God? Not in anyway. As I stated in my earlier post/posts IF this was God's judgment it will also work together for the good or the salvation of the Japanese people and surely bring revival. READ! If you think God doesn't use bad things to get people's attention then you are ignorant. I read the Word and simply believe God for what it says. You bring up the ark and ask if I'll want my money back if I had financially donated. Well shoot PG, surely you don't believe the story of Noah and the ark. In your stance their is no room for a flood caused by God that covered the entire Earth and destroyed ALL but 8 souls. Can't be true based on what I am hearing from Christians, witnesses, here on J2. God doesn't work that way! You're belief causes people to deny the Word of God if they believe you that is.

I find nothing wrong with holding groups accountable if they take donations. Groups all over take funds for specific tasks and use them for other tasks. Again I say send me your address. I see you are gathering blankets and such. We would love to be a part.

Back to my pastor. He has no problem pointing out that God is a jealous God, a vengeful God, and that HE has promised to destroy the nations that forget HIM.

By the way, I'm fairly certain the Japanese people suffered greatly due to their worship of their emperor. The United States was used by God, imho, to bring about that suffering in 1945. I recall like 150,000 men, women, & children perishing immediately in the 2 atomic attacks. Countless were injured and died later. But of course you could never believe that God would use a nation to punish another nation but again I'd point you to the Word of God to which you'd either ignore or say God has changed.

[dolfan]

Please process this and don't jump ahead with counterarguments until you've digested the whole of it.

my stance is that it could be possible that the earthquake and following disaster is the judgment of God due to Japan's unbelief and false worship. NEVER have I said it was God's wrath.

FQ, honestly, it is not much of a stance that something "could be possible" with God. I mean, "with God, all things are possible". All things, that is, except God acting in contradiction of Himself. That is not possible. (i.e., "God is not a man that He should lie," "God is not tempted neither does He tempt any man", "...in Him is light and no darkness...", etc.)

Either this earthquake/tsunami/nuclear disaster is or is not the judgment of God. Now, you raised the question. Bear the burden of persuasion if not of proof. Make your argument one way or the other.

I continue in asking because I don't pretend to know the mind of God as some apparently do.

Then, let's be humble and not self-assuming at all. You are doing more than asking. You are hypothesizing reasons for why this happened, and all your guessing has been on one side -- judgment. In my opinion, and I can only give that since I'm no more an authority of God on Japan than you are, this is not an act of judgment. If it is, it remains true that Japan is still on the map and its people are still there, and God loves them and wants them for Himself.

You bring up the ark and ask if I'll want my money back if I had financially donated. Well shoot PG, surely you don't believe the story of Noah and the ark. In your stance their is no room for a flood caused by God that covered the entire Earth and destroyed ALL but 8 souls. Can't be true based on what I am hearing from Christians, witnesses, here on J2. God doesn't work that way! You're belief causes people to deny the Word of God if they believe you that is.

Let me offer this. God is sovereign. What happened would not have happened against His sovereignty. Letting that stand where it is on the one hand, the other hand is our knowledge of God's purposes behind his sovereign choices. Judgment? Something else? None of us have been briefed, before or since, from on high, about that. But, He has given us His Word, He has given us His Spirit to lead us into all truth, and He has supplied us with this rather remarkable gift of ability to know Him. Agreed?

Alright. Noah's flood was expressly an act of God's judgment. It was pre-announced. It was specific. No, Noah didn't put it on Facebook, but he did build an ark. His labor on the ark is said in Hebrews 11 to have condemned the world. Peter called Noah a "preacher of righteousness". I am pretty certain that Noah's long and monumental work compelled him to many answers when asked and to make his own remarks unsolicited about why he was building an ark.

Noah's flood has characteristics about it which distinguish it from Japan's recent miseries and so lead us to reasonably conclude that God was not acting judgmentally in His sovereignty here. That's one thing.

Another is that, in the New Testament, judgment of the kind we're discussing seems to be reserved for the whole world at a particular point in time and not peppered out. Known variously as the "day of wrath", "day of judgment", "day of the Lord", this day of of wrath will be for that particular purpose of judgment against unrighteousness, rejecting God, etc. Now, from what I can tell, that wrath is being stored up. If I'm wrong, I stand to be corrected. But, as I read Romans 2:5, the unrighteous are storing up for themselves wrath for the day of wrath and God's righteous judgment.

I don't see that you're saying that THIS is THAT.

Is this a corrective "statement" from God? I don't know. If He doesn't say so, we're left only to wild conjecture.

Is this an opportunity, however, to repeat the message to the people in Japan in a way they've never heard it? Yes, it is. Is the salvation of those few or many who would receive the Word in Japan now a way of God working this disaster together with the love of Christians for the good of His own purpose to save and redeem? Well, yeah. It is. If so, then how ought Christians respond? Not with so many "Lord bless you" and the like alone, but with real, material help for their actual, material needs, too. How would they be expected to hear us, and how would we even be genuine otherwise?

Back to my pastor. He has no problem pointing out that God is a jealous God, a vengeful God, and that HE has promised to destroy the nations that forget HIM.

I have no problem with the fact, either. But, it is simply presumptuous to say that current events are judgments. It is, as I see it, forcing an attribute of God onto God that contradicts His revelation of Himself to us. Not only is God's act of judgment an attribute, but the time and manner of doing so is equally Godly. He commands all men everywhere to repent, and He has not yet destroyed the world in righteous judgment. Until He acts with condemnation through destruction, the very existence of the world -- even a badly tattered one such as in Japan or as Haiti -- tells us that He has not yet judged the world and that mercy and repentance and love are yet available.
Disasters may be wake-up calls and the church should absolutely be ready and rapid responders to them in love and truth and with the Good News.

By the way, I'm fairly certain the Japanese people suffered greatly due to their worship of their emperor. The United States was used by God, imho, to bring about that suffering in 1945. I recall like 150,000 men, women, & children perishing immediately in the 2 atomic attacks. Countless were injured and died later. But of course you could never believe that God would use a nation to punish another nation but again I'd point you to the Word of God to which you'd either ignore or say God has changed.

I simply disagree that God used America to "punish" Japan for emperor worship in 1945. Japan was humbled as a warmongering nation that got a comeuppance. It stopped them from being that.

[Pastor Gary]

I love the smell of syfogging in the morning. Dolfan, let Danny rant... the more he posts, the deeper the hole gets as he tries to backtrack, obfuscate and scramble to Bill Clinton his position.

[RamboPreacher]

...he tries to ... to Bill Clinton his position.

lol, and bwahahahah.

my take on this is from Jesus:
Luke 13:1–5 (LEB)
1 Now at the same time some had come to tell him about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mixed with their sacrifices. 2 And he answered and* said to them, “Do you think that these Galileans were sinners worse than all the Galileans, because they suffered these things? 3 No, I tell you, but unless you repent you will all perish as well! 4 Or those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them—do you think that they were sinners worse than all the people who live in Jerusalem? 5 No, I tell you, but unless you repent, you will all perish as well!”

Did God judge the Galileans to be "really" sinful and that they needed to be destroyed? uhm, nope. what about the 18 in Siloam when the tower fell on them, were they bad sinners and thats why it happened to them? uhm, nope.

My take is as with any challenge in what might be a discussion in Thodicy, We live in a fallen world. stuff happens. and when it does, it is meant to be a "sign" for those involved that they need to repent or perish themselves. Humanity is frail. just because you are a Christian, doesn't mean stuff isn't going to happen to you. there is Biblical worldview and wisdom and revelation that can help us through, and be wondrously blessed in it, but it's not about them getting judged. it's about everyone else being judged perfectly, by the one who is righteous.

The FEAR of the Lord is the first step.

[Paully_44]

Wen did the Lord stop passing judgment on nations and thus destroying them for their sin?

If HE did then why do people always say things like God is going to make us pay for taking prayer out of school and legalizing abortion?

In the old Testament?

[Full Quiver]

Paully, thanks for an honest answer.


PG, talk about judgment saying our church put on a dog and pony show. More souls were saved in those few services than in your church in an entire year is my bet. One old man, in his 70s, gave his life to Christ. He hadn't been to church since he was an adolescent because some crooked preacher made off with all the churches $$$. Our church offered a venue that got that man in to hear the Gospel. Don't start with your CRAP. You on one hand preach that today's churches must think and act out of the box and then you criticize our local church that has done more for the world and the kingdom of God in the past 20 years that you'll probably ever hope to accomplish. You display a sad, sad spirit when you want to Gary. Of course in your mind it's just Danny but your mind is far from right many times just as mine is.

It is a shame that you put a price on souls. You'll pay an arm and a leg for the newest technology and TOY from APPLE but God forbid souls get drawn to the Gospel and saved. By the way, how much has the General Assembly cost the CoGoP and every minister and member personally through the years? That's money that could have gone directly to the mission field. Money that you willingly spend and even accept offerings to attend and spend. You participate in that circus every 2 years don't you? And let's not pretend it hasn't been a circus.

Paully 44 gave an honest answer. I disagree considering Paul and John the Revelator's writings but hey he threw it out there.

Dolfan said God hasn't quit destroying the nations but doesn't believe that the mess in Japan is the hand of God.

Paul judged America in his original post but gives the rest of the world a pass for their sins. at least he's consistent.

PG, you just can't give an answer that makes any sense.

Dolfan, I asked a question and again I say I do not know but I believe it's possible, highly possible. Jesus proved to the disciples that HE controls the storms. I still believe HE does. It's like saying God had nothing to do with what happened to Job; HE allowed it!

God gives life and God takes it away. We tend to blame it on chance, disaster, accident, etc. In the end it is always God's decision.

[dolfan]

Dolfan said God hasn't quit destroying the nations but doesn't believe that the mess in Japan is the hand of God.

...

Dolfan, I asked a question and again I say I do not know but I believe it's possible, highly possible. Jesus proved to the disciples that HE controls the storms. I still believe HE does. It's like saying God had nothing to do with what happened to Job; HE allowed it!

God gives life and God takes it away. We tend to blame it on chance, disaster, accident, etc. In the end it is always God's decision.

I never said that God's hand isn't involved with Japan's disasters. I said, in response to the question you posed, that I do not believe that God punished Japan. Nothing happens on this planet -- or anywhere for that matter -- outside of the sovereignty of God. I never said anything about "chance" or the like. I think Rambo's allusion to Jesus' reference to the tower of Siloam is a fitting one. What you're doing is muddying the waters of God's purposes and God's sovereignty. I haven't waded into it to try and distinguish them. God is sovereign, period. You have repeated the assertion that it is "highly possible" that God judged Japan by them.
A possibility that you emphasized by doubling your "possible" reference: "possible, highly possible". Usually that means a person thinks it more than 50% possible (?). You move from "possible" to "likely" at some point.

I did ask you once before to demonstrate that this was judgment. You've responded with nothing more than you think it is "highly possible" (not just "possible"). Hey, it's your assertion. Stand by it or gloss it over however you want. But, I would say this: You know, it is a pretty good idea to be careful about attributing a motive to God that you don't know is certain. I mean, it is one thing to know something as a matter of fact, even if that knowledge is spiritually accomplished. It is another and insidious thing to say something is true of the God of all creation when you really are just guessing and projecting your own motives of what you'd do if you were God and then trying to hedge on it by saying that's what He's "highly possibly" doing. That is idolatry. It may even be one of those "railing accusations" we tremble a little bit when we think about them.

[Pastor Gary]

Here's my final word on this thread:

http://vimeo.com/21279489

[Full Quiver]

Dolfan, let me be clear. I don't know why, but it wouldn't be the first time God allowed bad stuff to happen to a nation of people. Bad stuff has happened and is happening in Japan like that has not been seen since WW2. It's happening and God is allowing it to happen. Surely HE has a purpose and one way or another I believe it is to get the attention of the Japanese people. It's very clear that MOST Japanese people do not acknowledge the Lord, that's not even debatable.


PG, I know you said the video was your last word and that's fine. I do appreciate the video. What it told me in the first couple of frames was that the Christian brothers & sisters in Japan know what I have said. The Japanese people are wicked and sinful. The young man quoted Chronicles 7 thus insinuating such. IF a small group of Christians in one nation can prevent God from punishing a nation or qualify bad disasters as chance or natural then AMERICA is on safe footing because AMERICA has more Christians than atheists. I never want to hear another Christian say America has it coming; America took prayer out of school. America has legalized gambling and abortion and America is about to be punished. That will never happen under your scenarios.