What constitutes education?

[Pastor Bill]

It's not an either or discussion.

Education and experience can go hand in hand, and the most successful are generally those with both.

I work for a college, I see many with high degrees and no common sense or experience, I see students graduate with plenty of education, but not really the experience to be ready to work with that education.

BUT I also see some experienced, well education individuals that blow everyone else out of the water, because they do not rely on one or the other.

Lack of experience will hold a person back. I 100% agree
Lack of education can hold a person back. I again 100% agree

Can you succeed with one or the other? yes, but how much more could be accomplished with both? Dawgs, I understand your situation, and I think that is a prime example of misunderstanding what education truly is, it's not about degrees, it's about what you've learned, and when it becomes about the piece of paper (which does often happen) we're wasting time, just like you said. BUT, gaining relevant quality education will strengthen anyone, and I hope in that your time was not truly wasted, but you found programs and courses that did provide you with added knowledge to strengthen who you are and the work that you will accomplish.

[dawgs10]

It's not an either or discussion.

Education and experience can go hand in hand, and the most successful are generally those with both.

I work for a college, I see many with high degrees and no common sense or experience, I see students graduate with plenty of education, but not really the experience to be ready to work with that education.

BUT I also see some experienced, well education individuals that blow everyone else out of the water, because they do not rely on one or the other.

Lack of experience will hold a person back. I 100% agree
Lack of education can hold a person back. I again 100% agree

Can you succeed with one or the other? yes, but how much more could be accomplished with both? Dawgs, I understand your situation, and I think that is a prime example of misunderstanding what education truly is, it's not about degrees, it's about what you've learned, and when it becomes about the piece of paper (which does often happen) we're wasting time, just like you said. BUT, gaining relevant quality education will strengthen anyone, and I hope in that your time was not truly wasted, but you found programs and courses that did provide you with added knowledge to strengthen who you are and the work that you will accomplish.

thats just it, There is nothing i can learn in a class that i cant learn working.

[dawgs10]

Bro. Paul,

A common weakness for Pastors (regardless of preaching ability) is Administration. The legalities of handling and managing donated money. How to handle business meetings. How to deal with hard headed people like Dawgs. After pastoring my first church I decided that I needed more training in this area and pursued a degree in Organizational Management. This involved classes in accounting, team dynamics, leadership, and much more. These basic functions are left out of most seminaries and seem to cause the majority of church problems.

Blessings,
Daniel

I understand what you are saying pastordaniel, but the fact is nothing can be learned in a organizational management class that cant be learned being a manager. you see where i am going with this. I think we as Christians are spending to much time doing papers and working theory while people are dieing and going to hell. none of this means i am against education although i know its a money racket. I do feel that education is good. i just dont feel one can be educated the best in a class room. I will more than likely continue with some form of education for the rest of my life, but come November the class room will be over. I am very proud of what you have been able to accomplish in your studies and everyone else here that has continued their education. But it should not be a make or break in ministry for sure.

[PastorDaniel]

Bro. Paul,

A common weakness for Pastors (regardless of preaching ability) is Administration. The legalities of handling and managing donated money. How to handle business meetings. How to deal with hard headed people like Dawgs. After pastoring my first church I decided that I needed more training in this area and pursued a degree in Organizational Management. This involved classes in accounting, team dynamics, leadership, and much more. These basic functions are left out of most seminaries and seem to cause the majority of church problems.

Blessings,
Daniel

I understand what you are saying pastordaniel, but the fact is nothing can be learned in a organizational management class that cant be learned being a manager. you see where i am going with this. I think we as Christians are spending to much time doing papers and working theory while people are dieing and going to hell. none of this means i am against education although i know its a money racket. I do feel that education is good. i just dont feel one can be educated the best in a class room. I will more than likely continue with some form of education for the rest of my life, but come November the class room will be over. I am very proud of what you have been able to accomplish in your studies and everyone else here that has continued their education. But it should not be a make or break in ministry for sure.

I agree that many things can be taught hands on. However, the church is not doing it. NO ONE explained or taught me about the pit falls of church management...I found the hole as I fell into it...so I "personally" chose to go and find training which I felt I was lacking.

The discussion here is not about whether you can preach or pastor without a degree...many pastor successfully without them...but not everyone is gifted for leadership...matter of fact...those that seem to be "gifted" for it were probably mentored by a Parent or Grand Parent...For example...your Parents were always supervisors and managers for as long as I've known them...you started working with your mother at the dollar store at a young age...you were mentored and taught hands on...not everyone has that privilage...

The discussion and the question asked revolved around the concept of education and what areas do we need to be educated in...

It would be awesome if churches had mentoring programs for up-and-coming ministers...but that is not the case...very few local churches practice mentoring or even discipleship for that matter...

[dawgs10]

Bro. Paul,

A common weakness for Pastors (regardless of preaching ability) is Administration. The legalities of handling and managing donated money. How to handle business meetings. How to deal with hard headed people like Dawgs. After pastoring my first church I decided that I needed more training in this area and pursued a degree in Organizational Management. This involved classes in accounting, team dynamics, leadership, and much more. These basic functions are left out of most seminaries and seem to cause the majority of church problems.

Blessings,
Daniel

I understand what you are saying pastordaniel, but the fact is nothing can be learned in a organizational management class that cant be learned being a manager. you see where i am going with this. I think we as Christians are spending to much time doing papers and working theory while people are dieing and going to hell. none of this means i am against education although i know its a money racket. I do feel that education is good. i just dont feel one can be educated the best in a class room. I will more than likely continue with some form of education for the rest of my life, but come November the class room will be over. I am very proud of what you have been able to accomplish in your studies and everyone else here that has continued their education. But it should not be a make or break in ministry for sure.

I agree that many things can be taught hands on. However, the church is not doing it. NO ONE explained or taught me about the pit falls of church management...I found the hole as I fell into it...so I "personally" chose to go and find training which I felt I was lacking.

The discussion here is not about whether you can preach or pastor without a degree...many pastor successfully without them...but not everyone is gifted for leadership...matter of fact...those that seem to be "gifted" for it were probably mentored by a Parent or Grand Parent...For example...your Parents were always supervisors and managers for as long as I've known them...you started working with your mother at the dollar store at a young age...you were mentored and taught hands on...not everyone has that privilage...

The discussion and the question asked revolved around the concept of education and what areas do we need to be educated in...

It would be awesome if churches had mentoring programs for up-and-coming ministers...but that is not the case...very few local churches practice mentoring or even discipleship for that matter...

Pastor Daniel knows me very well, so this will not surprise him but it may some of you. He is right. I was mentored and taught hands on. Because of this I have grown to know that the book is true. "Everything I Needed To Know I learned In Kindergarten". Pastor Daniel is right, we need good mentoring programs in the church. If we had them, there were be no need for some of the "institutes of higher learning" for ministers. Mentor, Train, Release. Mentor, Train, Release. That practice should be happening in every church no matter the size. Good point Pastor.